Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016

[JosEPh_II]

DH is working on these. WIP basically.

I agree with both. They've been on my 'list' for a while but I've been waiting to take a deeper look at building chains before making these adjustments. That said, they are probably valid enough assessments to make the suggested changes immediately.


I'm happy to look into this but I'm stuck on a really really big project right now and I've also got a big debug to do with the MP game. I can't look into this issue until both are resolved. There's also a crash bug I need to address first once I get unstuck from the AI project I'm working on.

2. Not bugs, but the economy aspect of the slowest game make certain improvements strange or untenable.
2a. "Public stoning" building makes two people unhappy & is free of maintenance, while the upgrade "Crucifixion Crosses" has a 1 maintenance and makes one person unhappy (which is more like 5 gold on this slowest speed) - the difference between the two is negligible, but the maintenance on the crucifixion crosses actually make this building worse and one you avoid upgrading to. I'd say either include maintenance for the public stone building, or slightly increase the crime reduction rate of the cruxifiction crosses. Right now they're both at five.

2b. The 5 gold cost graveyard, burial platform and mausoleum increase to a whopping 25+ maintenance cost on this speed. There is no way that you're building that in the early game and I'd be hard pressed to give away that kind of money later on - rather build another healer to keep disease in check... I'd suggest lowering the maintenance on these buildings, as it doesn't make sense why they'd be so expensive in the first place... Honestly II think they should cost 1 gold maintenance, but I guess you have a reason why they've been set so high.

You have made the choice of playing on the longest Game Speed and most difficult Difficulty level we have to offer, therefore you are reaping the choices of your decisions. Why should we ease up on these 2 settings? Perhaps instead you should do 1 of 2 things; either reduce the game length (use a GS besides Eternity) and/or Drop your Difficulty level (Dl). The GS and The Dl use % modifier's on those buildings that have set costs.


@T-brd,
No. They are not "out of line". That is catering to the extreme players not the mean players.

Why is it when a deity player meets a rough spot in their game they always come and complain it's "not" balanced and "needs" corrections? They choose to play at these levels. If it's too hard then drop a level or reduce the game length (GS).

As too a review of the building lines, that depends. I've been a supporter of changing the ratio Crime reduction vs the cost of maint. for a long time. But this does not mean Septimus' choices in both GS and Dl should precipitate an immediate change for values we've used for a long time. That is knee jerk and catering. Both are No No's.

Sorry Septimus don't mean to be rude just straight forward. Your complaints are just that complaints not valid for making changes. If we did this for every "complaint" there would Never be any balance in the mod. And these are not "bugs" either. To make that perfectly clear as well.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

You have made the choice of playing on the longest Game Speed and most difficult Difficulty level we have to offer, therefore you are reaping the choices of your decisions. Why should we ease up on these 2 settings? Perhaps instead you should do 1 of 2 things; either reduce the game length (use a GS besides Eternity) and/or Drop your Difficulty level (Dl). The GS and The Dl use % modifier's on those buildings that have set costs.


@T-brd,
No. They are not "out of line". That is catering to the extreme players not the mean players.

Why is it when a deity player meets a rough spot in their game they always come and complain it's "not" balanced and "needs" corrections? They choose to play at these levels. If it's too hard then drop a level or reduce the game length (GS).

As too a review of the building lines, that depends. I've been a supporter of changing the ratio Crime reduction vs the cost of maint. for a long time. But this does not mean Septimus' choices in both GS and Dl should precipitate an immediate change for values we've used for a long time. That is knee jerk and catering. Both are No No's.

Sorry Septimus don't mean to be rude just straight forward. Your complaints are just that complaints not valid for making changes. If we did this for every "complaint" there would Never be any balance in the mod. And these are not "bugs" either. To make that perfectly clear as well.

JosEPh

I'm simply saying his thoughts on those two subjects were what I'd been thinking for a very long time.
It's ridiculous that a graveyard cost so much upkeep. The graveyard is asking for more governmental spending than a major wall. huh? Just what must be upkept here? The mowing of the lawn? I can see 1 gold upkeep for that entity and no more being reasonable. What it extrapolates out to naturally based on game speed is whatever that amounts to. But a base of 5????? Nothing in RL can suggest this is reasonable.

And isn't the point of a building upgrade, as in the case of the move to crosses, primarily best represented by an improvement in it's primary function? A lateral upgrade seems pretty stupid here, like the designer wasn't looking at the upgrade chart when he determined the initial values. I would think a cross would be much more effective, since it gives a long term example to the public of what happens when you cross the law, than a mere singular public stoning event.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Hydro and DH did those buildings. And the hue and cry back then was, "Not Enough Maint. costs, Too Much Gold in the Game".

We've played the Pbem game for 4 years now and Everyone in those 2 games has lived by what is in the building lines. Now we Must change them because 1 new poster says so? Hmmm........doesn't sound right to me at all. If they were so bad Pit2015 would've been crying Bloody *ell over them for his scenario over the last year or so, NM Deity with an extra large gigantic map and Eternity GS at that.

I use them all in every game I play and test. Do I like the costs, no, but I've learned how to deal with them as has everyone else that plays this mod.

Reactionary.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hydro and DH did those buildings. And the hue and cry back then was, "Not Enough Maint. costs, Too Much Gold in the Game".

We've played the Pbem game for 4 years now and Everyone in those 2 games has lived by what is in the building lines. Now we Must change them because 1 new poster says so? Hmmm........doesn't sound right to me at all. If they were so bad Pit2015 would've been crying Bloody *ell over them for his scenario over the last year or so, NM Deity with an extra large gigantic map and Eternity GS at that.

I use them all in every game I play and test. Do I like the costs no, but I've learned how to deal with them as has everyone else that plays this mod.

Reactionary.

JosEPh

Again. His post echoed what I've stated many times before here but nothing has yet been done about it. Nor am I going to adjust it yet anyhow because I wait to see what the building upgrade charts reveal first.

 

[tmv]

Just what must be upkept here? The mowing of the lawn?

Where is the undertaker?

 

[Septimius]

Hydro and DH did those buildings. And the hue and cry back then was, "Not Enough Maint. costs, Too Much Gold in the Game".

We've played the Pbem game for 4 years now and Everyone in those 2 games has lived by what is in the building lines. Now we Must change them because 1 new poster says so? Hmmm........doesn't sound right to me at all. If they were so bad Pit2015 would've been crying Bloody *ell over them for his scenario over the last year or so, NM Deity with an extra large gigantic map and Eternity GS at that.

I use them all in every game I play and test. Do I like the costs, no, but I've learned how to deal with them as has everyone else that plays this mod.

Reactionary.

JosEPh

I don't much like your approach to what I write, I choose how to play this game, not you. And I choose to help out with what observations I make on stuff that doesn't work or is buggy. I may be wrong when I do it, but I leave that up to the creators to decide. So you can make the best game possible. Don't shoot the messenger.

So don't make that as a point, it proves nothing and gets us nowhere. Especially not when it's so easy to refute what you say.

Someone on your team decided to increase maintenance on the slowest speed by 185% - partially based on my comments about a year ago about swimming in money. Now I'm having a hard time and thoroughly enjoying it, especially after T. Bird educated me on the upkeep system. This change was done some months ago and with gamebreaking updates in between, what I'm reacting to, is recent ya dig!? I've dug into the archives and it seems like it was your change 9257. This has basically broken certain buildings. Which is what I'm pointing out.

Those three buildings are untenable on the slowest speed, that's all there is to say about it. Every building has an upkeep of around 4-5 gold, while those three buildings become closer to 30 gold. That means you will never build them, doesn't matter what difficulty you play at.


Thanks to Thunderbird for actually listening, hope you figure out something out, because by solving one thing - and I do believe that insane gold surplus has been solved on the slowest of speed - you've created another more specific problem.

Now I'm going to move on with this game and see what happens. Can I stay afloat with constant pressure on my economy? Time will tell. But one thing is certain - I ain't building any of the burial buildings. I may be a masochist, but I'm not suicidal.


I've uploaded my save for you to have a look at, if you want to experience the economic consequences of the slowest speed. I''d say that to make my economy work better, I'd get rid of a lot of my hunters, but I just love poking around the map with them, so that ain't happening.

 

[Septimius]

Also, because the flexible difficulty setting is both in the new game section and the bug options section, I've no idea whether I'm actually playing on deity/nightmare or whether it's been lowered. I chose it as off in the new game section, but I'm pretty sure it's still on. As I pointed out earlier...

So this might very well be emperor difficulty or whatever it's called, without nightmare working.


Btw. concerning public stoning, why not just make it worse than cruxifiction? Reduce it to 3 crime reduction, then make cruxifiction 6 crime reduction. In my book that would make it worthwhile upgrading from a non-upkeep building to an upkeep building.

Or better yet, don't have cruxifiction obsolete public stoning. Jesus himself prevented people from publicly stoning Maria Magdalene, before he ended up on the cross. One doesn't eliminate the other.

 

[Toffer90]

Also, because the flexible difficulty setting is both in the new game section and the bug options section, I've no idea whether I'm actually playing on deity/nightmare or whether it's been lowered. I chose it as off in the new game section, but I'm pretty sure it's still on. As I pointed out earlier...

So this might very well be emperor difficulty or whatever it's called, without nightmare working.

Since nightmare only makes deity difficulty harder, and it makes it approximately one difficulty harder, flexible difficulty will in practice turn down or up difficulty by two steps whenever it goes between deity and immortal. The nightmare option does work no matter what flexible difficulty does but it only affects the highest difficulty.

Nightmare option used to turn up all diffs by one steps until quite recently, and I did not agree with that change.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@septimus,

I am the creator of the current Game speeds and a full Team Modder. Read my sig line.

Sorry if you feel your feathers have been ruffled. But you are very very late to the party so to speak. And you understanding of the Mod's working's may not be up where you think it is.

I'm not a dilpomat, I don't cushion what I have to say.

I don't much like your approach to what I write, I choose how to play this game, not you.

And while this is true about how "you" choose to play, don't tell me how to mod. Fair enough.

Someone on your team decided to increase maintenance on the slowest speed by 185% - partially based on my comments about a year ago about swimming in money. Now I'm having a hard time and thoroughly enjoying it, especially after T. Bird educated me on the upkeep system. This change was done some months ago and with gamebreaking updates in between, what I'm reacting to, is recent ya dig!? I've dug into the archives and it seems like it was your change 9257. This has basically broken certain buildings. Which is what I'm pointing out.

Don't get pissy, Ya Dig! I don't and won't put up with it. So cool your jets. I broke no buildings or their lines. They still function as they have before the changes just with more bite on the level You choose to play on.

Those three buildings are untenable on the slowest speed, that's all there is to say about it. Every building has an upkeep of around 4-5 gold, while those three buildings become closer to 30 gold. That means you will never build them, doesn't matter what difficulty you play at.

Not so and that is only your opinoin. I test and play multiple difficulty levels, it's part of my "job" as a Modder. You are the only squeaky wheel. So you are the aberration here.

As for your in game choices that does not dictate that things need changed to suit your play style.

JosEPh

 

[Septimius]

@septimus,

I am the creator of the current Game speeds and a full Team Modder. Read my sig line.

JosEPh

I know you're one of the modders of the game, doesn't make you less of a Moderator Action: SNIP . I wrote completely fair points and you decide to run your mouth like some Moderator Action: SNIP schoolgirl.

You made some changes that Moderator Action: SNIP up some of the buildings. If you don't want to admit to that, the more blind you. Others can see it, where you can't. That's at least something. Anyway, I'm done here. No use in talking to an obvious provokist like you. Maybe go out in the snow one of these days and get some air - ya dig, kid?

And don't tell me how to talk, if you can't take the heat in the bakery, don't turn up the thermostat.

Moderator Action: Name calling, foul language and uncivil attitude are not going to help you get what you want. Please report posts that you are angry with and tell us why. Taking it into your own hands only means a troll or flame war, neither of which are productive. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Toffer90]

You made some changes that ****ed up some of the buildings. If you don't want to admit to that, the more blind you. Others can see it, where you can't.

Those two building have always been a bit nonsensical, so it's unfair to say he messed up the building as he didn't change the buildings. I liked the proposal to not have the crosses replace the public stoning; there is no reason not to have them both at the same time.
If you are correct about gamespeed affecting the maintenance cost from building then there is definitely something wrong there; that shouldn't happen. If it's only the difficulty that made the maintenance high then thats a different matter entirely.
The real problem with the graveyard is that it should not be available until late ancient or early classical era. The graveyard should replace a building called "burial ground" that have a smaller maintenance cost and is available in prehistoric.

@Team: I've implemented a "Burial ground" building in my C2C modmod, maybe I should put it in the main mod???

 

[Thunderbrd]

The graveyard's upkeep has always been a point of contention here.

@Toffer, the Burial ground building sounds good, as in a step earlier could help, but it needs parallels for the other types of burial traditions. DH needs conferred on this subject. I still don't think the graveyard should ever have as much upkeep as it currently does. When you look at governmental budgets in RL, maintaining the dead is never going to be anything but the most minimal fraction of spending.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If it's only the difficulty that made the maintenance high then thats a different matter entirely.

Bingo on Difficulty. Gamespeed affects how fast it gets built by the GS used.

Those two building have always been a bit nonsensical, so it's unfair to say he messed up the building as he didn't change the buildings.

Correct. No changes made.

I liked the proposal to not have the crosses replace the public stoning; there is no reason not to have them both at the same time.

Concur

@Team: I've implemented a "Burial ground" building in my C2C modmod, maybe I should put it in the main mod???

No problem from my end. DH has 4 new buildings that affects the type of burial. Perhaps they could be used somehow. Would need to look at them closer.

And I have no problem with Public Stoning not being replaced by Crucifixion either. But there is a long list for both buildings for replacement buildings that come later. They are also where they are because of the prereq tech that introduces them into the game. Long thought those builds should stack. And with T-brd latest Crime and LE additions even moreso now.

@septimus,
Right, we are done, name calling ended it. And this "kid" has been retired for years now. Rather presumptuous aren't you.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

The graveyard's upkeep has always been a point of contention here.

@Toffer, the Burial ground building sounds good, as in a step earlier could help, but it needs parallels for the other types of burial traditions. DH needs conferred on this subject. I still don't think the graveyard should ever have as much upkeep as it currently does. When you look at governmental budgets in RL, maintaining the dead is never going to be anything but the most minimal fraction of spending.

I would need to look again but Graveyard uses iCommerce not iCommerceModifier iirc. And Hydro set those levels to be high by his design. Of course he's not actively modding C2C anymore so....do what you will.

JosEPh

 

[Usul13]

Update on the Realistic Culture Spread issue. I reached the next culture level with the city. My borders are expanded by one tile. On the screenshot it is in the bottom right corner, under the bison.

It seems that RCS kicks in now. Maybe you were right about the influence driven warfare thing. But if this is the case, then the effect is too strong in my opinion.

 

[Toffer90]

Update on the Realistic Culture Spread issue. I reached the next culture level with the city. My borders are expanded by one tile. On the screenshot it is in the bottom right corner, under the bison.

It seems that RCS kicks in now. Maybe you were right about the influence driven warfare thing. But if this is the case, then the effect is too strong in my opinion.

May also just mean that you finally reached a cultural level that the previous owner did not reach. From your previous report and my own experience, I suspect that a specific city only runs the RCS culture code the first time it reaches a cultural level, that it somehow takes a shortcut when reaching the same culture level later.

 

[Thunderbrd]

May also just mean that you finally reached a cultural level that the previous owner did not reach. From your previous report and my own experience, I suspect that a specific city only runs the RCS culture code the first time it reaches a cultural level, that it somehow takes a shortcut when reaching the same culture level later.

Good theory. At least something suggests an answer. Influence driven war didn't seem quite sufficient to explain.

 

[rfcfanatic]

Game years are based off number of tech each era has. And if you have played only 1200+ turn of the 5000 turns on snail and Started the Game in Prehistoric Era, as the game is designed to do, you would not be at 2350AD.

Any game started in any era But Prehistoric will not have matching game dates even close to the era you happen to be playing in.

Now if you started this game in the Prehistoric Era then there is a problem. And we would have to determine the source.

JosEPh

Yes, I confirm that I started the game in the Prehistoric Era. Also, as I predicted, the game pace slowed down to 4 years per turn after 2600 AD. Before that, the pace was 8 years per turn quite for a while - since 100 AD or close to it - that I noticed from post-game history replay screen.

My humble guess is that this info is somehow coming from CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml configuration file, but I could be wrong completely.

 

[Toffer90]

Had a look at the date system for snail and noticed this:
One reach the year 2600 after 1275 turns; snail consist of 4940 turns in total.

@Joseph: When you made your changes to gamespeed, perhaps you made a mistake with the dates here...

 

[rfcfanatic]

1275 turns on Snail seems to be matching with my results.

I guess, I'm gonna play the Eons speed for now. Dates seem to be making more sense there. E.g. every year between 1167 and 1587 AD seem to be present in the game according to my calculations. Then it gets slower and slower until 1904 AD when it starts speeding up again.