Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016

[Thunderbrd]

So a 200K BC start means all the homo sapiens civs must start close very together (in Ethiopia) then start migrating to the rest of the world after 150K years. While the game starts with different civs spread out over the (old) world (i.e. everywhere except the Americas).

There is no way to make the tech tree historically correct, as firemaking and stone tools probably predate Homo Sapiens by a few million years. As Homo Sapiens started migrating out of Africa only after 50K BC the game should not start earlier than 50K BC and perhaps even a bit later.

Ironically, that's exactly how I'd like to have the beginning of the game start once we have the Nomadic Start fully implemented, with nearly all civs emerging from families in a community of Homo Sapiens that have begun to migrate out from each other but are all starting in a cluster in a single area on the map. Soooo... spot on dating then right?


@Hydro I suspect... perhaps someone else?

       <BuildingInfo>
           <!-- Culture (Athenian) -->
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</Type>
           <SpecialBuildingType>SPECIALBUILDING_C2C_CULTURE</SpecialBuildingType>
           <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</Description>
           <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
           <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
           <Advisor>ADVISOR_CULTURE</Advisor>
           <!-- Graphical and interface -->
           <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</ArtDefineTag>
           <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
           <!-- Prerequisites -->
           <bWater>1</bWater>
           <BuildingClassNeededs>
               <BuildingClassNeeded>
                   <BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_GOOD_EUROPEAN</BuildingClassType>
                   <bNeededInCity>1</bNeededInCity>
               </BuildingClassNeeded>
           </BuildingClassNeededs>
           <!-- Construction -->
           <iCost>-1</iCost>
           <!-- Main effects -->
           <CommerceChanges>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
           </CommerceChanges>
           <FreeBonus>BONUS_ATHENS</FreeBonus>
           <iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses>
           <!-- Special properties -->
           <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
           <iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
           <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
           <iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
       </BuildingInfo>

There is a very interesting lack of prereqs here, like tech prereq for one. Also the build cost is -1. Is this a WIP or is this setup as an autobuild for some reason?

 

[Toffer90]

Ironically, that's exactly how I'd like to have the beginning of the game start once we have the Nomadic Start fully implemented, with nearly all civs emerging from families in a community of Homo Sapiens that have begun to migrate out from each other but are all starting in a cluster in a single area on the map. Soooo... spot on dating then right?


@Hydro I suspect... perhaps someone else?

       <BuildingInfo>
           <!-- Culture (Athenian) -->
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</Type>
           <SpecialBuildingType>SPECIALBUILDING_C2C_CULTURE</SpecialBuildingType>
           <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</Description>
           <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
           <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
           <Advisor>ADVISOR_CULTURE</Advisor>
           <!-- Graphical and interface -->
           <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_ATHENIAN_EMBASSY</ArtDefineTag>
           <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
           <!-- Prerequisites -->
           <bWater>1</bWater>
           <BuildingClassNeededs>
               <BuildingClassNeeded>
                   <BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_GOOD_EUROPEAN</BuildingClassType>
                   <bNeededInCity>1</bNeededInCity>
               </BuildingClassNeeded>
           </BuildingClassNeededs>
           <!-- Construction -->
           <iCost>-1</iCost>
           <!-- Main effects -->
           <CommerceChanges>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
           </CommerceChanges>
           <FreeBonus>BONUS_ATHENS</FreeBonus>
           <iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses>
           <!-- Special properties -->
           <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
           <iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
           <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
           <iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
       </BuildingInfo>

There is a very interesting lack of prereqs here, like tech prereq for one. Also the build cost is -1. Is this a WIP or is this setup as an autobuild for some reason?

I suspect It's a culture that does not unlock a single building or unit. so it is indeed a WIP and should not be available to the player as it is a wonder that does nothing..
There are several cultures that is defined like the Athenian is.

Edit: I was wrong in my suspicion, there are units tied to the BONUS_ATHENS given by that culture, Pericles hero for one.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Remember that we are planning a nomadic start feature, where you won't be able to settle a city before some tech. Your first "city" would be a unit that can produce units.

↓↓ Subject to change ↓↓
On Normal gamespeed the first 150 000 years take atm. (latest SVN) 47 turns.
On Eternity gamespeed the first 150 000 years take atm. (latest SVN) 469 turns.
↑↑ Subject to change ↑↑

Anyhow, why do we have to accurately simulate history in every possible way?

Last question 1st; to satisfy player likes and wants.

So you Doubled Normal gamespeed's # of turns, yet you give Preh Era 47 turns. WTH are you thinking!

I see what you've done you've put your Modmod GS into the Mod. Did T-brd approve of this all along?

Put the GS lengths Back to what they were Toffer. You didn't even give anyone a chance to discuss this. Not even in a Team PM! You just do what you want when you want and T-brd apparently has to be giving you his "blessing" to do this type of brazen behaviour.
This is a "slap in the face" type move Toffer. You've went way way too far on this one.

Oh and you forgot to fix BUG as it's now constantly giving error reports on every turn because it still thinks the Mod starts at 50, 000 BC. Which goes to show another aspect of your arrogance! You did Not even game test these changes! Yes! Your's Is the Superior Way!

 

[Toffer90]

So you Doubled Normal gamespeed's # of turns, yet you give Preh Era 47 turns. WTH are you thinking!

No, I gave prehistoric era 200 turns on normal game speed. The year is exactly 10 000 BC after 200 turns.

I see what you've done you've put your Modmod GS into the Mod. Did T-brd approve of this all along?

I pretty much did, as that is how I best saw fit to balance out gamespeeds. I didn't talk to TB about it.

Put the GS lengths Back to what they were Toffer. You didn't even give anyone a chance to discuss this. Not even in a Team PM! You just do what you want when you want and T-brd apparently has to be giving you his "blessing" to do this type of brazen behaviour.

It is not something that is easy to discuss if one haven't tried it in game, I thought it best to let people try it and then discuss it when we know what we are discussing better.
I thought about adding it as a game option but it would be impossible to balance the rest of the mod for both the option on and off. I can revert it in a month just as easy as I can revert it right now.

This is a "slap in the face" type move Toffer. You've went way way too far on this one.

I got the impression that you gave me your blessing. ↓↓

Understood. It's all yours now. Also the setting of the iTurnIncrements for each GS is yours now too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and you forgot to fix BUG as it's now constantly giving error reports on every turn because it still thinks the Mod starts at 50, 000 BC. Which goes to show another aspect of your arrogance! You did Not even game test these changes! Yes! Your's Is the Superior Way!

I game tested them, apparently not enough to notice a problem with BUG. I'll look into it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I got the impression that you gave me your blessing. ↓↓

Nowhere did I say you could destroy the GS turn lengths that I worked hard to get permission to reduce, Eon and Eternity. But because you read into it more than I said you blasted it all to pieces.

But for you to blatantly Double the turn lengths on Normal, Epic and even Marathon is outrageously arrogant on your part. There are Myriads of C2C players that Want the GS turn lengths on these 3 that I have specifically stated and had set, 1000, 2000, 3000, Not 2000, 4000, 6000. You've basically told all of us players that want to play those GS, and this includes StratgeyOnly as well, F**& Off. You don't matter. Only what I want matters. He and I both Do not like to play these excessively long drawn out boring game turn lengths. Do you understand?

And have you even played any of this since you blasted the mod with this stuff? Event errors that fill half the screen on every turn. It's ridiculous. You've slapped me in the face before. Played the Hall monitor over every change I made to the mod, and I quote you, "I've checked every change you have made to the mod...". Must meet your approval of course because you know you can't trust JosEPh's work. But this was a boot to the head when I was already down.

You have skills that I wish I had. But this tears down my respect for you. I can't trust you any more.

 

[Septimius]

@Joe - First of all, I think you should take a breather. You are getting too angry over this. I'm much the same as you, but it's powerful emotions getting the better of us, not necessarily constructive criticism... Apologies for butting in...

As far as I understand it - wasn't all this done in order to include like four or five more eras? Making it really necessary to make the game longer... And change a lot of stuff... Something that I've seen discussed elsewhere at length. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/why-is-this-modmod-not-in-c2c-already.611332/

As I understand it, T-Bird did give his go-ahead for that part. I mean, most of this time would logically be placed in the four new future eras that are being introduced?

@Toffer90 - And obviously the new game speed needs testing... But all of us who use and update the SVN don't want our games to suddenly become the guineapigs for this... I mean this really feels like it demands I start a new game.

 

[Harrier]

I have to agree with JosEPh on this. The changes are to many and to drastic and not expected. Why did you not discuss them before hand on the forum. Then introduce them a few at a time.

I know dates are not really relevant, but as an example playing a game on Epic and Monarch. My saved turn date was 442AD. Using SVN 9463.

I updated to the current SVN 9522, to make an SVN commit.

Forgot to revert back to the older version (which I have now done). The date became 142,425 AD. I did not play just got rid of the load.

Fixing errors or omissions is one thing - but major game changes without discussion is not right.

If those that disagree are in the minority OK. But lets discuss first.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Discussions have been all over the forum about era changes. SOME chaos was bound to take place.

Then toss on top of that a knee jerk reaction to a problem it looked like we had in the code (which was but it also wasn't as much as I'd thought... hard to explain but the final coding is settling on something in between.) and a fix that I THOUGHT would've hardly been anywhere near as significant at changing some of the final numbers as it turned out to be. IN fact, it seemed so minor that I made the adjustment, committed it, then dove into a major project which has made it terribly difficult to work in adjustments in to the SVN quickly.

I didn't mean to spark this much controversy and it's been a serious pain in the arse for a lot of us but that's just a natural growing pain and with my adjustments or not it was going to take some tough work to account for the era shifts taking place.

There is also no such thing as a small change to the gamespeedinfos file. No slight tweaks... this thing has to be a masterpiece of elegance or it's not... simple as that. Two modders can try to achieve that in very very different ways and it's almost impossible to have them agree on foundational fundamental approaches to it. This is a file that has been a major project to rework for ... 4-5, maybe 6 different modders, myself included, since C2C began. It is a hellish work like trying to form a crystal out of salt and have it be completely see-through. You can't tell someone, tweak it so that it fits with the changes taking place. If you don't do that yourself, you're bound to have someone totally and completely change it from scratch. I think anyone, Joseph included, who's worked on that file can understand why this is. However, obviously some liberties were not intended by comments made in hasty frustration.

That said, we're all allies here, all united by a common goal to make things better. And after discussions looking into the depth of adjustments and changes and the causes, I think both of those in conflict here have strongly valid points and yes, strongly valid frustrations as well. So please guys, try to be respectful of each other, even if you don't FEEL it. And let's talk out what things need to be changed and addressed and if we disagree, DO share why but do so in a manner that doesn't try to suggest the other person's view is somehow inferior. Just explain the reasons for your approach and believe it or not I think the two of you would find you agree on more than you think and can come to agreement after some discussion on those places you don't currently see eye to eye.

I say that knowing that I've been in similar conflicts and knowing where I will dig my heels in but if I don't know what it is you guys can't agree on directly, I cannot help to moderate, which is what we lacked for in previous conflicts, someone to make a final call.

Joseph, you HAVE earned your right to some territorialism on this subject, so don't just throw that territory at someone and expect they'll not take that as an invitation to rework it entirely, especially when you know that person HAS a model they've worked out in their own modmod, one that's been open for playtesting for some time now.

Honestly, I personally don't care who feels what except that I consider you both friends and important team members. I care more for the end result being something great, and I don't think either of you will have that without listening to the other. And I also care that we get to that point quickly because the fans on the forums are the reason we do this. So getting into making it personal is not going to speed up that process, right? Act like the other person is a computer with an opinion if you must. And do your best to interface please.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Examples of errors on every turn now.

 

[Toffer90]

@Joe: Thanks for reporting this, I wonder what's causing it, will investigate.

 

[Toffer90]

But for you to blatantly Double the turn lengths on Normal, Epic and even Marathon is outrageously arrogant on your part. There are Myriads of C2C players that Want the GS turn lengths on these 3 that I have specifically stated and had set, 1000, 2000, 3000, Not 2000, 4000, 6000. You've basically told all of us players that want to play those GS, and this includes StratgeyOnly as well, F**& Off. You don't matter. Only what I want matters. He and I both Do not like to play these excessively long drawn out boring game turn lengths. Do you understand?

Ok, I'll halve the amount of turns needed for a time victory.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok, I'll halve the amount of turns needed for a time victory.

What doe that mean?

 

[Toffer90]

What doe that mean?

It means that I will use your calendar setup as a starting point and figure out how to slightly adjust it so there is 150 000 more years in the beginning, and how to slightly adjust the end so that the total turn number for

Normal is 1000 turns.
Epic is 2000 turns.
Marathon is 4000 turns.
Snail is 6000 turns.
Eons is 8000 turns.
Eternity is 10 000 turns.​

By slightly adjust I mean that there will be no noticeable shift in how many turns it take to get through most dates, the only noticeable shift will mostly be contained to after 2200 AD.

Sounds ok?
Or should I just add the first 150 000 years and leave the total turn numbers exactly how you defined them?
I don't really care about the total turn number as its only purpose is to define when time victory is triggered, so anything works for me there.

I started working on this this morning, but had a visit from my sister that cut modding work to a halt.
Now it's evening, I might not get it done before a couple of days.

 

[Toffer90]

Are anyone else getting the error messages Joe posted with loads of screenshots above?
I haven't managed to replicate them here.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Are anyone else getting the error messages Joe posted with loads of screenshots above?
I haven't managed to replicate them here.

I figured it out. Anytime someone works on Python and then does a commit somehow the Civ4Config files gets this line changed:

Set to 1 for no python exception popups
HidePythonExceptions = 1

It was set to 0. I reset it to 1, and now they're off the screen.

If adding in the 1st 150,000 years only adds 50, 100, or even 200 turns respectively for the GS then that is not a problem. Example 1064 + 50 = 1114 for Normal is not a problem. Same for all the rest of the GS. I left plenty of "wiggle room" (what I refered to as Fudge factor repeatedly) at the end for all of the slower GS for the later Eras if they were to be expanded. As it had been mentioned once pepper2000 started his modmod to fill in the last Eras and T-brd wanted to eventually include it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So hiding the errors rather than figuring out how to fix them is OK

 

[Toffer90]

I figured it out. Anytime someone works on Python and then does a commit somehow the Civ4Config files gets this line changed:

Set to 1 for no python exception popups
HidePythonExceptions = 1

It was set to 0. I reset it to 1, and now they're off the screen.

If adding in the 1st 150,000 years only adds 50, 100, or even 200 turns respectively for the GS then that is not a problem. Example 1064 + 50 = 1114 for Normal is not a problem. Same for all the rest of the GS. I left plenty of "wiggle room" (what I refered to as Fudge factor repeatedly) at the end for all of the slower GS for the later Eras if they were to be expanded. As it had been mentioned once pepper2000 started his modmod to fill in the last Eras and T-brd wanted to eventually include it.

Sure I can put in 150 000 years without changing the number of total turns at all btw.

I would still like to know if it's okay by you that I make small (using the wiggle room ^^) adjustments to get this total amount of turns for the gamespeeds:

1000 turns - Normal
2000 turns.- Epic
4000 turns - Marathon
6000 turns - Snail
8000 turns - Eons
10 000 turns. - Eternity​

Ok,or not?

 

[Toffer90]

So hiding the errors rather than figuring out how to fix them is OK

I tried looking into it, but the autologger seems a bit mysterious to someone who has little to no insight into its entirety. So I gave up as none of the errors influence the game as far as I can see.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So hiding the errors rather than figuring out how to fix them is OK

Not at all... but you are admittedly the only team member who knows how to debug python. Do you have even a suspicion as to what may have gone wrong here?

Can I also ask you to leave us with some wisdom as to how to go about debugging python and linking that to the modder's docs or something? I need to learn this from a central source somehow. And figuring out how to turn on the messages is a good place to start. Then referencing those logs and using what they state to dig down to the root of the problem would also be good to explain how to systematically go about things.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am not getting any messages. You need to look at the PythonErr.Log file as it puts all the information there. Joe will need to provide one. The PythonErr2.log file is something else entirely and the PythonDbg.log contains all sorts of interesting stuff when you first generate a world.