philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahah
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So Long Belgium?
- Thread starter Babbler
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^I was waiting for the Flanders/Simpsons joke...
I agree though with what some people claim above. Many people who vote for the extreme right-winged "Vlaams Belang" party are not extremists, but they are just unhappy with the Belgian politics. It's a sort of protest vote, you could say. This does however lead to more extremist "behaviour" in the traditional political parties, because they see that "Vlaams Belang" is gaining a lot of votes. The traditional parties don't want to lose their voters so they come up with a more right-winged (not extremist right-winged) political programme (e.g. more police on the streets, a quick solution for the BHV problem... ), so it seems the Flemish voters are becoming more and more right winged as well. A big mistake that has been made the last elections by the socialist party was that should 've been the left winged answer to all this right-winged mambo jambo, instead they took quite a beating because they claimed to be pro-Flanders as well.
To every right winged (republican) American: Vlaams Belang reminds me a lot of the US Republican party with its nationalist/patriotic, "let's lower the taxes to please the riches", homophobic", antileft, (unspoken) racist, traditionalist values... I wouldn't judge too soon about those "fascist" Flemish.
I agree though with what some people claim above. Many people who vote for the extreme right-winged "Vlaams Belang" party are not extremists, but they are just unhappy with the Belgian politics. It's a sort of protest vote, you could say. This does however lead to more extremist "behaviour" in the traditional political parties, because they see that "Vlaams Belang" is gaining a lot of votes. The traditional parties don't want to lose their voters so they come up with a more right-winged (not extremist right-winged) political programme (e.g. more police on the streets, a quick solution for the BHV problem... ), so it seems the Flemish voters are becoming more and more right winged as well. A big mistake that has been made the last elections by the socialist party was that should 've been the left winged answer to all this right-winged mambo jambo, instead they took quite a beating because they claimed to be pro-Flanders as well.
To every right winged (republican) American: Vlaams Belang reminds me a lot of the US Republican party with its nationalist/patriotic, "let's lower the taxes to please the riches", homophobic", antileft, (unspoken) racist, traditionalist values... I wouldn't judge too soon about those "fascist" Flemish.
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
you know what a big mistake was? Caroline Gennez saying it's the fault of the walloon side of the socialists that they lost the elections.
i voted socialist cause i wanted a left-centrist goverment
The chairman made a lot of errors; it was if the whole party was looking to the potential loss of the VLD to look at what hit it had coming. The tide can still turn, De Bruyne can still win. maybe the socialists will be saved
And now we're in this mess, and you know why?
WE CAN'T VOTE FOR WALLON POLITICIANS AND THEY CAN'T VOTE FOR FLEMMISH POLITICIANS.
So "our" Leterme vs "their" reynders.
Retards, on both sides.
luckily i hear the extreme right Wallon party is breaking up
btw if the wallons can't accept N-VA we shouldn't accept FDF.
That's why i'm angry and reacted so frustrated and emotional.
I want the best for all of us, but our neighbour countries see us as extremists, and internally we're too damn stuck to do anything.
Oh my, didn't we gave in enough? Hasn't history asked enough of us?
We live in peace and wealth, and we will be generous to others, but just give in to the constitution, follow the law!
PS:
and our monarch takes a holiday to italy in this crisis, the one time we "need" him ,he's gone on holiday.
====>
sirdanilot
BBcode owns in sigs!
Now now, emotions are running high in this topic!
Can't we all just get along?
Anyway, I still think Flanders should get independance if they want to. But it should be peaceful.
Can't we all just get along?
Anyway, I still think Flanders should get independance if they want to. But it should be peaceful.
Pannonius
Reconquistador
You're getting pwned anyway. Soon enough you'll all be part of glorious Islamic Republic of Belgistan!
Hopefully you understand that there is nothing inherently racist about the Republicans, any more than there is among the flemings... you shouldn't fight a vicious generalization with another. Bush is alot of things but he is not a racist.
willemvanoranje
Curitibano
Not frontdoor at least..
Well, if there is no evidence that he is, does it make more sense to assume that he isn't, or to assume that he secretly is and is hiding it? Not all incompetence is racism.
Vlaams belang is specifically against multi-culturalism and immigration, and support deportation of immigrants who have not "assimilated". It also makes a distinction between European (meaning white) and non-European immigrants. The party does not accept Islam in the Belgian society. This is clearly racist and xenophobic - I dont see anything "unspoken" about it. The American republicans, on the other hand, support immigration and multi-culturalism (despite talks of deporting illegal immigrants the US still has a great percentage of legal immigrants).
I dont say this to defend republicans (I dont like their form of conservatism at all) but to point out that it is very serious that we have such extreme political parties in Europe. It cant be explained away by saying the republicans are the same.
I think Luiz brings up a good question here, and I have always wondered why Wallonians have so poor knowledge in Dutch. How can a nation hold together if it consists of two people who do not understand each other?
I think Marlas explanation is nonsense - neither French nor Dutch are international languages you need in everyday life. English is the world language however, needed for everything, so the comparsion to Canada is not valid. And even if French would be such an international language, it makes no difference - if Belgium should be one nation, both groups should speak both languages. If Flemish people speak French but not the other way around, it's just a recipee for resentment, as luiz said.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
The whole concept of Belgium is one big idiocy. Whoever invented it, must have been severely mentally handicapped.
But it is up to the Flemmish or Walloons whether they want to step out of this lunacy.
If they do so, I can see Wallonia enter la Republique Francaise. But for the Flemmish provinces to join the Netherlands...., very doubtful. The republic of Flanders seems more logical to me.
Anyway, Belgian Limburg and Dutch Limburg should be reunited and then become a new German Bundesland
.
But it is up to the Flemmish or Walloons whether they want to step out of this lunacy.
If they do so, I can see Wallonia enter la Republique Francaise. But for the Flemmish provinces to join the Netherlands...., very doubtful. The republic of Flanders seems more logical to me.
Anyway, Belgian Limburg and Dutch Limburg should be reunited and then become a new German Bundesland
.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Brussel is indeed the only part of Belgium that is (artifically) bilingual. It's a common mistake the Belgium is a billingual nation. It's simply a combination of two areas with a different language. I think l'Alsace is more naturally bilingual than Brussel.
Marla, apart from the reason you mentioned, there are more reasons why more Flemmish speak French than Walloons that speak Dutch:
-Dutch is an awfully screwed up language and is hard to learn.
-Until the 1960s, French was the official language in Belgium. The Belgian constitution was not translated into Dutch at all, until the sixties.
-Upper class Flemmish families often speak French.
About the VB:
I am a bit reluctant to label them racist so easily (I would label them racist in the end
). Though the VB is very stinky lot, there actually are good reasons to be against immigration. Immigrants are responsible for more than 50% of the serious crimes. That's simply a statistic. Nothing racist or rightwingism to be pro limitation of immigration.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Until the 1980s, French was more or less considered an international language in Europe. From a Dutch point of view, an international diplomat, still today, is supposed to control both English and French.
It's not really any of the 3 causes you presented.
The fact is that we learn French starting at the age of 10, while in Wallonia it isn't even obligatory for a school to offer Dutch as the second language. Many schools offer(ed) English as the second language. The mentality is changing however. The knowledge of Wallons of the Dutch language is improving. On the other side the knowledge of French is diminishing on the Flemish side.
The causes for this can be found in history. Wallonia was once the richer part of Belgium and on top of that the Flemish top-class also spoke French. So to get somewhere, you had to speak French almost fluently. I remember my grandfarther always looking at my school-results in French classes, because he was from the generation where you had to know French to succeed in life. He had a grocery store in a small village in Flanders, but he his best costumers (the doctor, the notary, the mayor,...) all spoke French.
Nowadays Flanders is the wealthiest part of Belgium, but it toke some time for the Wallons to realise that they had to learn Dutch now, to be able to get somewhere. On the other hand, young Flemish people speak better English then French because of the internet, TV and music-culture. We still learn French, but we don't use as often anymore as our parents and grandparents did. So knowledge of the French language is decreasing.
Belgium declared independence, rather than being manually constructed, so yes, the belgians themselves were mentally handicapped.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
If they really, really want to be separated (which I don't know if they do), separate them, make Brussels an international city, capital of the EU, unify the EU and have them as different provinces.
Sounds like what I did to Belgium after I won WW2 as Germany in Hearts of Iron 2
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
The independece was mostly a Wallonian thing. Though it is pretty likely the Flemmish had enough of being part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, they most certainly did NOT want to be in one nation under Wallonian rule, which is what happened anyway.
And there was more manual construction to it than you make it appear. British and French influence for instance. The British had guaranteed Belgium its souvereignity (in 1830), which is why they had to declare war to Germany in 1914.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Err, what?
Prove it. Racism is a view that certain races are biologically inferior to others. I don't think they believe in that.
To sum it up:
1) being against multiculturalism - good, or is it illegal to think that MC is a bad idea?
2) being against immigration - isn't that a right of every man to be against a government policy?
3) support for deportation of unassimilated immigrants - again, what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't you have a right to demand cooperation from people who came to your country?
4) distinction between European and non-European immigrants - sounds rather logical, immigrants from Europe tend to share a similar culture and are easily assimilated compared to people from culturally different parts of the world.
5) not accepting Islam - is it now compulsory to accept an alien religion spreading un-European ideas and causing asocial behaviour? Should they accept Aum Shinrikyo too?
Don't use these words to describe something which has nothing to do with them.
Hawe Hawe
Warlord
It's none of my business but personally i am against splitting up Belgium. I like the country quite much and we got so many nice things from them like:
1. Tintin et Milou: one of the best comic strips in history
2. interesting and mostly tasty varieties of beer (even with german standards): cherry beer, hoegarden white beer or those strange super strong beers with about 11% alcohol
3. delicious food: chocolate, waffles, moules et frites
4. Belgium/Brussels has always been a good host for the European Union, in fact it is the EU in small scale. Brussels is a fascinating multicultural city. Best capitol the EU and Belgium can have.
To be honest, the discussion about splitting up is a bit irrational. The whole concept of nationalism and separatism is getting less and less important within the EU and the European Integration.
1. Tintin et Milou: one of the best comic strips in history
2. interesting and mostly tasty varieties of beer (even with german standards): cherry beer, hoegarden white beer or those strange super strong beers with about 11% alcohol
3. delicious food: chocolate, waffles, moules et frites
4. Belgium/Brussels has always been a good host for the European Union, in fact it is the EU in small scale. Brussels is a fascinating multicultural city. Best capitol the EU and Belgium can have.
To be honest, the discussion about splitting up is a bit irrational. The whole concept of nationalism and separatism is getting less and less important within the EU and the European Integration.
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