So what is really going on in Iraq?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kayak

Partisan
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
2,236
Location
Upside down
Interesting article here. You should look at the comments section for some good insight as well.
LINK:http://www.juancole.com/2005/12/top-ten-myths-about-iraq-in-2005-iraq.html

Top Ten Myths about Iraq in 2005

Iraq has unfortunately become a football in the rough and ready, two-party American political arena, generating large numbers of sound bites and so much spin you could clothe all of China in the resulting threads.

Here are what I think are the top ten myths about Iraq, that one sees in print or on television in the United States.

1. The guerrilla war is being waged only in four provinces. This canard is trotted out by everyone from think tank flacks to US generals, and it is shameful. Iraq has 18 provinces, but some of them are lightly populated. The most populous province is Baghdad, which has some 6 million residents, or nearly one-fourth of the entire population of the country. It also contains the capital. It is one of the four being mentioned!. Another of the four, Ninevah province, has a population of some 1.8 million and contains Mosul, a city of over a million and the country's third largest! It is not clear what other two provinces are being referred to, but they are probably Salahuddin and Anbar provinces, other big centers of guerrilla activity, bringing the total for the "only four provinces" to something like 10 million of Iraq's 26 million people.

But the "four provinces" allegation is misleading on another level. It is simply false. Guerrilla attacks occur routinely beyond the confines of Anbar, Salahuddin, Ninevah and Baghdad. Diyala province is a big center of the guerrilla movement and has witnessed thousands of deaths in the ongoing unconventional war. Babil province just south of Baghdad is a major center of back alley warfare between Sunnis and Shiites and attacks on Coalition troops. Attacks, assassinations and bombings are routine in Kirkuk province in the north, a volatile mixture of Kurds, Turkmen and Arabs engaged in a subterranean battle for dominance of the area's oil fields. So that is 7 provinces, and certainly half the population of the country lives in these 7, which are daily affected by the ongoing violence. It is true that violence is rare in the 3 northern provinces of the Kurdistan confederacy. And the Shiite south is much less violent than the 7 provinces of the center-north, on a good day. But some of this calm in the south is an illusion deriving from poor on the ground reporting. It appears to be the case that British troops are engaged in an ongoing struggle with guerrilla forces of the Marsh Arabs in Maysan Province. Even calm is not always a good sign. The southern port city of Basra appears to come by its via a reign of terror by Shiite religious militias.

2. Iraqi Sunnis voting in the December 15 election is a sign that they are being drawn into the political process and might give up the armed insurgency So far Iraqi Sunni parties are rejecting the outcome of the election and threatening to boycott parliament. Some 20,000 of them demonstrated all over the center-north last Friday against what they saw as fraudulent elections. So, they haven't been drawn into the political process in any meaningful sense. And even if they were, it would not prevent them from pursuing a two-track policy of both political representation and guerrilla war. The two-track approach is common among insurgencies, from Northern Ireland's IRA to Palestine's Hamas.

3. The guerrillas are winning the war against US forces. The guerrillas are really no more than mosquitos to US forces. The casualties they have inflicted on the US military, of over 2000 dead and some 15,000 wounded, are deeply regrettable and no one should make light of them. But this level of insurgency could never defeat the US military in the field.

4. Iraqis are grateful for the US presence and want US forces there to help them build their country. Opinion polls show that between 66% and 80% of Iraqis want the US out of Iraq on a short timetable. Already in the last parliament, some 120 parliamentarians out of 275 supported a resolution demanding a timetable for US withdrawal, and that sentiment will be much stronger in the newly elected parliament.

5. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, born in Iran in 1930, is close to the Iranian regime in Tehran Sistani, the spiritual leader of Iraq's majority Shiite community, is an almost lifetime expatriate. He came to Iraq late in 1951, and is far more Iraqi than Arnold Schwarzenegger is Californian. Sistani was a disciple of Grand Ayatollah Burujirdi in Iran, who argued against clerical involvement in day to day politics. Sistani rejects Khomeinism, and would be in jail if he were living in Iran, as a result. He has been implicitly critical of Iran's poor human rights record, and has himself spoken eloquently in favor of democracy and pluralism. Ma'd Fayyad reported in Al-Sharq al-Awsat in August of 2004 that when Sistani had heart problems, an Iranian representative in Najaf visited him. He offered Sistani the best health care Tehran hospitals could provide, and asked if he could do anything for the grand ayatollah. Sistani is said to have responded that what Iran could do for Iraq was to avoid intervening in its internal affairs. And then Sistani flew off to London for his operation, an obvious slap in the face to Iran's Supreme Jurisprudent Ali Khamenei.

6. There is a silent majority of middle class, secular-minded Iraqis who reject religious fundamentalism. Two major elections have been held. For all their flaws (lack of security, anonymity of most candidates, constraints on campaigning), they certainly are weather vanes of the political mood of most of the country. While the Kurdistan Alliance is largely secular, the Arab Iraqis have turned decisively toward religious fundamentalist parties. The United Iraqi Alliance (Shiite fundamentalists) and the Iraqi Accord Front (Sunni fundamentalists) are the big winners of the most recent election. Iyad Allawi's secular Iraqiya list got only 14.5 percent of the seats on Jan. 30, and will shrink to half that, most likely, in this most recent election. A clear majority of Iraqis, and the vast majority of the Arab Iraqis, are constructing new, fluid political identities that depend heavily on religious and ethnic sub-nationalisms.

7. The new Iraqi constitution is a victory for Western, liberal values in the Middle East. The constitution made Islam the religion of state. It stipulates that the civil parliament may pass no legislation that contradicts the established laws of Islam. It looks forward to clerics serving on court benches. It allows individuals to opt out of secular, civil personal status laws (for marriage, divorce, alimony, inheritance) and to choose relgious canon law instead. Islamic law gives girls, e.g., only half the amount of inheritance received by their brothers. Instead of a federal government, the constitution establishes a loose supervisory role for Baghdad and devolves most powers, including claims on future oil finds, on provinces and provincial confederacies, such that it is difficult to see how the country will be able to hold together.

8. Iraq is already in a civil war, so it does not matter if the US simply withdraws precipitately, since the situation is as bad as it can get. No, it isn't. During the course of the guerrilla war, the daily number of dead has fluctuated, between about 20 and about 60. But in a real civil war, it could easily be 10 times that. Some estimates of the number of Afghans killed during their long set of civil wars put the number at 2.5 million, along with 5 million displaced abroad and more millions displaced internally. Iraq is Malibu Beach compared to Afghanistan in its darkest hours. The US has a responsibility to get out of Iraq responsibly and to not allow it to fall into that kind of genocidal civil conflict.

9. The US can buy off the Iraqis now supporting guerrilla action against US troops. US military and civilian officials in Iraq have on numerous occasions alleged in the press or privately to me that a vast infusion of billions of dollars from the US would dampen down the guerrilla insurgency. In fact, it seems clear that far more Sunni Arabs support the guerrilla movement today than supported it in September of 2004, and more supported it in September of 2004 than had in September of 2003. AP reports that the US has spent $100 million on reconstruction projects in Diyala Province. These community development and infrastructural improvements, often carried out by US troops in conditions of danger, are most praiseworthy. But Diyala is a mess politically and a major center of guerrilla activity (see below), which simply could not be pursued on this scale without substantial local popular support. The Sunni Arab parties, which demand US withdrawal and reject the results of the Dec. 15 elections, carried the province, winning 6 seats.

The guerrillas are to some important extent driven by local nationalism and rejection of foreign occupation, as well as resentment at the marginalization of the Sunni Arab community in the new Iraq. They have a keen sense of national honor, and there is no evidence that they can be bribed into laying down their arms, or that the general populace can be bribed on any significant scale into turning the guerrillas in to the US. Attributing motives of honor to one's own side and crass economic interests to one's opponent is a common ploy of political propaganda, but we should be careful about believing our own spin.

Even a simple economic calculation would favor the guerrillas fighting on, however. If they could get back in control of Iraq through a coup, they'd have $50 billion a year in oil revenues to play with. The total US reconstruction aid promised to Iraq is only $18 billion, and much of that will be spent on security-- i.e. it won't benefit most Iraqis.

10. The Bush administration wanted free elections in Iraq. This allegation is simply not true, as I and others pointed out last January. I said then, and it is still true:

' Moreover, as Swopa rightly reminds us all, the Bush administration opposed one-person, one-vote elections of this sort. First they were going to turn Iraq over to Chalabi within six months. Then Bremer was going to be MacArthur in Baghdad for years. Then on November 15, 2003, Bremer announced a plan to have council-based elections in May of 2004. The US and the UK had somehow massaged into being provincial and municipal governing councils, the members of which were pro-American. Bremer was going to restrict the electorate to this small, elite group.

Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani immediately gave a fatwa denouncing this plan and demanding free elections mandated by a UN Security Council resolution. Bush was reportedly "extremely offended" at these two demands and opposed Sistani. Bremer got his appointed Interim Governing Council to go along in fighting Sistani. Sistani then brought thousands of protesters into the streets in January of 2004, demanding free elections. Soon thereafter, Bush caved and gave the ayatollah everything he demanded. Except that he was apparently afraid that open, non-manipulated elections in Iraq might become a factor in the US presidential campaign, so he got the elections postponed to January 2005. This enormous delay allowed the country to fall into much worse chaos, and Sistani is still bitter that the Americans didn't hold the elections last May. The US objected that they couldn't use UN food ration cards for registration, as Sistani suggested. But in the end that is exactly what they did. '

Iraq's situation is extremely complex. It is not a black and white poster for an American political party. Good things and bad things are happening there. The American public cannot help make good policy, however, unless the myths are first dispelled.
 
MobBoss said:
I am willing to bet "no".
I'm willing to ask why does that matter? Many people haven't been to Iraq. You could argue that Bush hasn't been to Iraq if you discount a fly into a heavily gaurded base or two.
 
Kayak said:
I'm willing to ask why does that matter? Many people haven't been to Iraq. You could argue that Bush hasn't been to Iraq if you discount a fly into a heavily gaurded base or two.

Then exactly how does he know about #6, and more importantly, #4? I'm not going to contend the other points because you don't need to talk to the people there to figure those out, but polls can be worded to be manipulated in many ways.
 
North King said:
I'm willing to bet you have no reason beyond pure ideology to believe that.

Uhm, no. Iraq isnt a vacation spot where a lot of academics visit. Unless you are in the military, military support, state department, or press corps, chances are you are going to have a really, really, hard time getting into the country.

I just look at it logically and I find the odds are pretty high that I am very correct in my assumption.
 
Everything this guy says has been in the news for a long time. He dosn't make this up, he simply sums up the facts. Of course some of you doubt him, and why shouldn't you? After all FOX didn't tell you these things...
 
blackheart said:
Then exactly how does he know about #6, and more importantly, #4? I'm not going to contend the other points because you don't need to talk to the people there to figure those out, but polls can be worded to be manipulated in many ways.
what storealex said, but #6 can be inferred easily from voting trends, and #4 individual polls can be manipulated, true, but many pols indicating the same thing provides and hign statistical probability as outliers can be ignored.
 
Good news item.
 
blackheart said:
Then exactly how does he know about #6, and more importantly, #4? I'm not going to contend the other points because you don't need to talk to the people there to figure those out, but polls can be worded to be manipulated in many ways.


6.There is a silent majority of middle class, secular-minded Iraqis who reject religious fundamentalism.

The author here (Juan Cole, btw, a history prof at Univ of Michigan), quote actual election results, not polls. Polls can be pretty unreliable and biased, but election choices tend to be a little more clear, even if there are problems and some corruption. From the election results, it seems that niether Sunni nor Shiite Iraqis are voting for secular parties, opting instead for muslim fundementalists. If the 'silent majority' does exist, thier certainly not voting that way.

4. Iraqis are grateful for the US presence and want US forces there to help them build their country.

While Cole does cite some quotes here (and didn't provide sources! :nono: ), it is a fact that a good 47% of the Iraqi parliament did support a resolution to have a timetable in place to see an american withdrawl. You can interpret that any way that you want, but considering that over half of the parliament belongs to muslim fundementalist parties, how many of them do you think are eager to see the US stay?

It is important to question opinion pieces about America's efforts in Iraq, but asking every journalist who writes about it to visit is asking a bit much. How many CFCers here have been to Iraq recently(besides some brave soldiers of course)? DO we have a right to question the information we get from our governments? I should hope so...
 
wow, this is fun: openly known facts combined into a nice list - and watch how the Bushpologists scurry out of their holes to bash the writer!

And what do they find? NOTHING they can attack.

So they make up a bogus argument (has he been to Iraq) and refuse to comment on anything else.

Really, is this a discussion board? From certain responses here I'd say it is more a 'use any trick to defend Bush&Co' board :lol:
 
Che Guava said:

4. Iraqis are grateful for the US presence and want US forces there to help them build their country.

While Cole does cite some quotes here (and didn't provide sources! :nono: ), it is a fact that a good 47% of the Iraqi parliament did support a resolution to have a timetable in place to see an american withdrawl. You can interpret that any way that you want, but considering that over half of the parliament belongs to muslim fundementalist parties, how many of them do you think are eager to see the US stay?

This point is not a myth being debunked, it is a dichotomy between what the Iraqi people want and what the politicians want. I've heard firsthand reports that the ordinary people of undisclosed location are esctatic that our troops are there. My friend is talking about the women, children, shop owners, workers, and all the other people who make up the local communities.

I'll grant the point that these same people do indeed want our troops to leave, when the time is right. However, it's pure balderdash to hear the comments of a few hundred politicians and use their voting record to imply that most people there want us to leave now.
 
not that much really- millions upon millions of people are going about their every day lives
 
DaveShack said:
This point is not a myth being debunked, it is a dichotomy between what the Iraqi people want and what the politicians want. I've heard firsthand reports that the ordinary people of undisclosed location are esctatic that our troops are there. My friend is talking about the women, children, shop owners, workers, and all the other people who make up the local communities.

Like I said, you can interpret the voting record however you like as it's not clear evidence for one side or another. I'm sure there are a lot of Iraqis that do want the American troops to stay, at least for the time being. What I think the author was getting at, however, is that it's not an overwhelming demand of Iraqis that they do stay, as some whitehouse spindoctors like to portray it.
 
Opinion polls show that ordinary Iraqis are looking forward to a democratic future. Are Iraqis sorry Saddam was overthrown?

80 % of people in the mainly Kurdish provinces and 58% of people in the mainly Shi'ite provinces think the United States was "right to invade Iraq. In the Sunni areas, just 16% think the US was right to invade and fewer than 40% approve of the new constitution.

70% of all Iraqis approve of the new constitution and almost as many expect life to be better a year from now. However, 2/3 want the Americans to go home. But most Americans, including myself who voted republican, feel the same way. Our time has come to leave.

Theoretically, taking out Saddam was a strategy based more on political science than on history. The "democratic peace" theory states that two democracies are always and everywhere less likely to go to war with one another than two dictatorships or a democracy and a dictatorship. A more democratic Middle East would be a more peaceful Middle East.

However, history proves complete success in Iraq would still leave some non-democracies right next door with Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

The problems in Iraq and the Middle East today are fundamentally the same ones that tore Europe apart in the mid-20th century.
The correlations are there...
  • Ethnic conflict- Europe had a rapidly growing population that was deeply divided along ethnic lines though the majority were Christians, not Muslims. Today's Middle East is rapidly growing and the divide is between Jews, Sunnis, Shi'ites and Kurds.
  • Economic volatility Europe was extremely volatile in the 20's and 30's and had the allure of natural resources (coal and iron, not oil). .Today we have Shi'ites (oil rich and Iranian influence), Kurds (independence) and Sunnis (traditional dominance) in Iraq and, of course, Israel.
  • Empire in decline-- In the mid 20th century British overstretch and internal instability of German, Austrian and Russian empires made full-scale war hard to avoid. Today's empire in decline was provided by the Ottoman Empire. As it turned into the Turkish nation-state we know today, the Ottoman Empire left behind a litter of lost provinces. Iraq, Jordan and Palestine (complete with "a national home for the Jewish people") joined Egypt in the British sphere of influence; Syria and Lebanon went to the French. Cleverly, us Americans staked a claim in the region by backing the House of Saud in Arabia.
The question is a Iraqi civil war inevitable?
Will that necessarily bad in the long run?
Or would it escalate into a regional conflict, particularly if Iran intervenes on the side of its co-religionists?
 
whomp, can you provide links/literature references to those opinion polls? That would be cool.....
 
Regarding #1: I think the general point made is that MOST of the terrorists are fighting in four provinces. Far more than their population would imply. Most of the other places the crime rate is lower than in the average Western city.

Regarding #4 & #6: Basing this off of how people vote is wrong. People vote for who they think will get them the MOST of what they want. For example, I voted for Bush, but am pro gay marriage, pro choice for early term (pre-sentience) abortions and think people who believe in ID must be an IDiot. However, I agreed with him on more issues than I did with Kerry. I agree all Iraqis want us to leave, but often here from my many sources over there, 'not now.' Timetable yes, immeidately no.
 
A'AbarachAmadan said:
Regarding #1: I think the general point made is that MOST of the terrorists are fighting in four provinces. Far more than their population would imply. Most of the other places the crime rate is lower than in the average Western city.

yeah, hamlets tend to have lower crime than large cities..... no, this point you are making is not valid - rural areas with hardly anyone living there and especially nobody checking on what's going on are portrayed as 'peacefull' to instill a view of 'things are OK'. THat is simply untrue, but the White House trots this claim out all the time.
 
carlosMM said:
yeah, hamlets tend to have lower crime than large cities..... no, this point you are making is not valid - rural areas with hardly anyone living there and especially nobody checking on what's going on are portrayed as 'peacefull' to instill a view of 'things are OK'. THat is simply untrue, but the White House trots this claim out all the time.

I wasn't refering to hamlets. I was refering to the cities in those locations. There are quite some large cities in southern Iraq with lower crime rates than similar sized Western cities. Lots of friends of mine (I lived in the Middle East for over two years) travel reguarly to southern Iraq on business with less fear than they do traveling to Europe, Asia or the US. Of course, none of them will go to Baghdad.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom