Subsidized Post-Secondary Education and Extended Adolescence

[BvBPL]

Two facts that will likely come as no surprise to the astute:
1.) The US does not heavily subsidize post-secondary education in the same way other Western nations do.
2.) There is a growing idea of an extended adolescence for Americans, extending through the college years into one’s late twenties.
I, for one, think that college, at least public colleges, should be largely subsidized by the state. The social benefits seem sufficient to me to justify the expenditure of my tax dollars.

However, I don’t necessarily want to subsidize this new extended adolescence. I want college to be a meaningful adult experience.

Which is not to say that I am necessarily opposed to students pursuing majors like Art History. Art History may not be the course of study with the best job prospects, but I think it is worthwhile and important to allow students to choose course work that interests them.

What I am concerned about are remarks by college administrators that the rising cost of college is based a great deal on the demands by students for better dorms, school services, and amenities. My alma mater, for example, just put up a new dorm that has these beautiful bay windows in the rooms. That’s nice for sure, but nice dorms aren’t the reason why students should attend college.

So the question is: how do I, and people who agree with me, reconcile these two issues? What can be done to make college an adult experience without, well, mollycoddling students with fancy schmancy dorms?

 

[Kyriakos]

I think the US is largely following the system and lifestyle of Sybaris

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

What I am concerned about are remarks by college administrators that the rising cost of college is based a great deal on the demands by students for better dorms, school services, and amenities.

Is that really the case or are they just looking for a justification to increase tuition costs that are actually caused by other reasons?

 

[warpus]

One thing that could be done is lowering the drinking age to 18 or 19, so that students don't arrive at college still thinking of themselves as high school students who need to party "out of view" of any authority figures. Cause you know they are going to want to party, every once in a while. If you make them feel like children, they will act as such. That doesn't touch on the "fancy dorm" issue, but I feel like it's worth mentioning.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

This may seem like a trivial, stupid change, but I think just lowering the drinking age back to 18 would help quite a bit. It used to be that students in college could drink and at faculty/student meetings of different sorts alcohol would be served. Drinking around adults helped them learn how to drink because getting plastered at an official function with your professors present is just a stupid thing to do.

Now the drinking age is 21 but everyone still does it illegally from 18-21 and they don't allow any alcohol on many campuses. So it's all underground; hidden in dorm rooms and basements where kids learn to binge drink from each other in an epic spiral of one-up-manship. It ends badly and I think it really stunts kids from growing up in this respect and they don't learn to drink responsibly or respect the power of alcohol.

DAMN YOU POLISH MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE SPACE NINJA

Edit: The push to make fancy dorm rooms and to constantly 'improve' campuses is ridiculous and does drive up education costs. Plus, colleges get caught in a spiral of trying to 'keep up with the Jones' in that they feel if they don't expand their gym, or build bigger dorms, etc, then they will lose students to colleges that do. Maybe they will, but the fact that this even happens is because as a society we've somewhat decoupled the inherent educational value of these institutions from their public image. People deliberately go to 'party schools' despite paying out the rear for it and some people will even pass up much better universities because other crappy ones have a bigger indoor pool and so on. Worst of all it's all underwritten by a completely outdated and out-of-whack student loan funding system that rewards next-to-worthless, expensive private colleges* for driving up tuition. Then you've got administrators and state governments failing to reign in outrageous spending at some state schools.

I've complained before that at my university they just hiked tuition considerably and yet they are still putting in a new geothermal plant that won't pay for itself for decades and multiple expansions of the chancellors house all while we still can't get whiteboards in the classes or a Wi-Fi network that works. I realize funding sources vary and schools can find money for new buildings whilst still having to bump tuition. I know this; however, that's just a symptom of our very messed up funding situation in the US.

* I am not saying that all private colleges are worthless or expensive

 

[warpus]

The university that I work at is currently building a giant dorm that looks kinda fancy. I think they're doing it so that the university can "stay competitive" and attract the best students. We have a reputation for having a very nice campus and I feel like the bigwigs in charge feel that this is worthy enough investment. Other universities are doing it - so we have to follow.

Polish space ninja out

 

[Quackers]

One thing that could be done is lowering the drinking age to 18 or 19, so that students don't arrive at college still thinking of themselves as high school students who need to party "out of view" of any authority figures. Cause you know they are going to want to party, every once in a while. If you make them feel like children, they will act as such. That doesn't touch on the "fancy dorm" issue, but I feel like it's worth mentioning.

See Britain that really doesn't work. There is an insane amount of alcohol and debauchery
University is a lot like giving a load of teenagers as much alcohol as they like and than letting them all have a giant "sleepover" with no rules or parents to bother them.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And another thing that grinds my gears:

We've become a society that on the one hand has a strong 'geek culture' but on the other hand glorifies stupidity. Case in point: I was at a bar yesterday and there was a trivia game on and one round asked players to match capitols with countries. This guy next to me starts whooping like a chimp because he guessed them all correctly without having a clue as to which country has London as its capitol. Now it could be that he was just excited because geography isn't his thing and as such felt excited to win. I find it far more likely however that he actually values being a dumbass - I see that in every day life. People think it's cool to be stupid and revel in their ignorance.

These are the same derps who like to proclaim USA#ALLTHENUMBERS without any conscious awareness that we got to #ALLTHENUMBERS status with hard work and a kick-ass education system. That same education system we've spent the better part of a generation gutting because lolTAXESARETHEFT and REFORM HURTS CHILDREN. Meanwhile the school system in St. Louis recently lost its accreditation and sent kids flooding to other districts that can't possibly support them all and the kids in Fayetteville, NC still have textbooks that say 'one day man will walk on the moon'. I guess that's better than what the kids in East St. Louis got; which is schools with no A/C because thieves stole the copper pipes out of them, 1 book to every five kids and sewer systems that back up and spew feces into the street when it rains hard.

Whenever someone whines that 'math is hard' or 'writing English papers suck' I want to give them an effing ticket to some third world hellhole and not let them come back until they've either sterilized themselves or learned calculus and prose.

Geek culture doesn't help in the long run if the derps outbreed us.

I'm way off topic and I'm sounding like a conspiracy theorist so I guess I should stop.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The way taxes are applied to these schools, they really are theft. "You will get your budget cut if you don't spend the allocated money, but if you throw a big vacation event you keep getting the same amount of money". The result is a consistent lack of incentive to spend efficiently.

People need to work at some point, and to earn what they're getting. Granted, we're pretty busy holding these people out of the work force so our unemployment numbers (which don't even count people who have given up trying to find work) stay relatively low, but that's going to run out eventually.

Simply put, if someone getting a degree doesn't make economic sense in terms of contributing to their career, they shouldn't be getting it. When people have to pay their own way through college or rely upon scholarships, they self-regulate that. Subsidized education has proven repeatedly that it is not capable of doing that. There is no rational justification for making a bad problem worse, other than political popularity.

 

[warpus]

See Britain that really doesn't work. There is an insane amount of alcohol and debauchery
University is a lot like giving a load of teenagers as much alcohol as they like and than letting them all have a giant "sleepover" with no rules or parents to bother them.

I'd rather have these young people drink in bars and pubs rather than their dorms though.

I feel that another problem is that almost everyone goes to university, even if they don't have a plan or don't need to. They enrol in some generic arts degree and party their university life away.. cause.. who cares, right? Their parents are paying for it after all.

If you are able to balance a party life and good grades though, all the power to you. It sort of shows that you are able to function as an adult as well, sort of. Work hard, play hard.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I'd rather have these young people drink in bars and pubs rather than their dorms though.

I feel that another problem is that almost everyone goes to university, even if they don't have a plan or don't need to. They enrol in some generic arts degree and party their university life away.. cause.. who cares, right? Their parents are paying for it after all.
If you are able to balance a party life and good grades though, all the power to you. It sort of shows that you are able to function as an adult as well, sort of. Work hard, play hard.

Plus there is the myth that all degrees lead to a better life, regardless of cost.

The way taxes are applied to these schools, they really are theft. "You will get your budget cut if you don't spend the allocated money, but if you throw a big vacation event you keep getting the same amount of money". The result is a consistent lack of incentive to spend efficiently.

Which schools are you talking about?
In the above post I was talking about public primary and secondary schools.

Edit:
Crap, had no idea this was an RD thread. Apologies, BvBPL

 

[Formaldehyde]

The reason that so many get overwhelmed with the personal freedom they have at college is because they had never experienced it before. That is the real difference between college and high school for many. You no longer got into disciplinary trouble for wearing some T-shirts or voicing your real opinions in class. You can skip classes and drink alcohol whenever you desire. You were suddenly treated like adults instead of young children. That sudden amount of personal experience is quite heady and many end up not being able to deal with it.

I have no problem with capital expenses for better dorms and classes. These don't really impact the operating costs much at all. The only real issue is whether the money can be raised while still providing the students with a realistically priced education. Nobody should be in debt for close to $100K when they graduate.

I see no real reason at all that state and other public colleges shouldn't be totally free. Students who are enrolled and maintain their grades should be able to get subsidized housing, food, and other amenities. Textbooks and other similar material should be electronic and freely disseminated, or purchased by the colleges and loaned to the students as they now are in K12 public schools. If they are returned at the end of the term in good condition, there should be no cost at all.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'd rather have these young people drink in bars and pubs rather than their dorms though.

I wouldn't care either way, if we consistently and soundly punished drunk driving. One of the most ridiculous things is the disparity between people caught for DUI when they don't kill someone vs when they do. You get pretty big penalties for firing guns in public, even if they don't hit someone. Getting into a lethal weapon and doing the equivalent is generally a slap on the wrist though.

They enrol in some generic arts degree and party their university life away.. cause.. who cares, right? Their parents are paying for it after all.

Shame on the parents then, whose own education failed them. It's not unreasonable to require your children to come up with some kind of plan for degree + career, demonstrate that they can execute it, and not pay for college otherwise. This is not something the government should care about at all. If people want to make bad investments, let them.

It should be trivial for someone who has planned a bit to party heavily and still succeed in college, and if they're focused on a decent career path they might even be able to pay back any loans they take out and have a successful life.

 

[NovaKart]

I think there is a sort of extended adolescence in the US and probably many countries but I wouldn't really consider nicer dorms to be the cause of it, I don't see how having rougher dormitories would create an increase in maturity.

I think the cause is probably people getting married later and postponing other major life decisions to a later age, and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that either. Most university students and many high school students have part-time jobs. Older people also seem to age slower in a way, that is, people in their 60s and 70s now are more active than they were in the past and you're not considered really old when you're in your 60s anymore.

 

[dutchfire]

Maybe separating the costs of housing, gyms and, you know, actually tuition would be good. Our university has a gym/sports centre, you can become a member for a small amount of money as a student (or a larger amount of money if you are an employee). If you want to follow classes, but don't want to do sports, you don't pay for the gym. Same for housing: if you rent privately or commute, you don't pay for the dorms.

 

[Quackers]

Out of interest - how do American College students under the age of 21 procure alcohol in the first place?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Upper classmen.

 

[Quackers]

Kind of sucks if you don't know any seniors than.

 

[Borachio]

Can't you brew your own?

 

[Tahuti]

Can't you brew your own?

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