Team Game - Isolated Pacal (Deity)

[Fippy]

I would probably not do a full Cuirs attack, we are not in need of land urgently..
main unit should be Cavs for that

Soo picking up some easy city captures if we see the chance on one or more AIs, while not whipping too much and only when it's not really hurting on our way towards Rifling after Cuirs.
I did that a couple times, and it's fun balancing cities.

Certainly fine with Cannons too, depends how much you are curious about the mounted thingy
Maybe we should also ask our readers, what they prefer seeing.
Raise your hands if you are here ~~

 

[unas876]

Well, I agree with Lains reasoning for Cannons They are just slow, steady, but effective, reliable and efficient.

But if you can make a case for mounted troops, I would definitely be interested to see if that approach can keep up or maybe even be superior. This isn't a HoF game so even if it turns out worse, we will all be smarter for it afterwards. That's just my 2 cents

 

[Lain]

Another thing to consider is that we don't actually have horses. Ok we can probably trade copper + stone for that without problems. But we could also get something else (useful) for our resources, happy+health stuffs.

So it's definitely tempting, not sure if we should "force" us to play in some special way though . Cavs sound fun, I would vote for cannons though. Efficient, reliable. Some good techers here could mean fairly early Rifles.

 

[dutchfire]

My experience with both Deity and isolation games is sufficiently limited that even a well executed Cannon+Rifle attack would teach me a lot.
Will those units finish the job, or do you think we should continue researching afterwards. If so, towards which target?

 

[unas876]

Well the tech pace doesn't seem to be too quick at this point. Lots of trades to be made that you wouldn't be able to make in a lot of other Iso games. It's not like Mansa or whoever is running away with the game, as was the case for example in the Freddie NC game that Lain played on his YT.

Good point though that there are no Horses on your island, so that hugely swings the favour to Cannons. And I actually have to agree with dutchfire: I'd learn a lot from a mounted attack, but it's not like I perfectly know a Cannon attack either

In other words: it would be cool to see if you could make a mounted attack work to the point where it's superior to a Cannon attack or just as good at least, but since no Horses, I don't think it's a good idea.

Let's see if Fippy can change my mind on that

I must say the game is a bit intimidating to participate in because of all the super accurate micro mostly, but it sure is great to follow.

 

[Fippy]

Well i have no intention to change minds

But i can give my reasons why i think Cavs are underrated compared with Cannons, which have become a first standard unit on maps with Galleons.
They are good, but not without strong competition imo.
(besides the obvious one of speed and fast progress against weaker AIs, and Cuirs starting)

* Grennies are nps for them, and mean that AI should be slower towards Rifling if taking that path
* Mounted does not exclude siege using, i always use some cheap Cats (no upgrade costs) for coastal cities to improve odds
* best counter of machine guns, and very useable still against Infantry (which loses 25% mounted bonus, but gains against gunpower units..making Rifles weak)
* Soo they actually have a longer life time than Rifles, which get badly countered by AL or Railroads, and can be used with cannon stacks then
* All wandering units can usually be picked off easily, while slow ones always need protection after doing so

Overall Rifles are not the end with Cavs.
Cannons can be added from many cities now, unless you were unable to catch any AI before Rifling..rare.
And we can continue thru Infs and MGs fine, they are not getting easy wins on open field against Pinch Cavs.

 

[Lain]

Yup, I don't disagree with anything . Think both are good options with certain advantages. Hmm. Cannons might be easier to play and maybe others can/want to play more turns later because of that. This + drafting + having to trade for horses would be main reasons for me to go with that option at this point.

I might try the horsie thing in my next iso game, does certainly sound fun. More dynamic, also more complex though.

 

[Lain]

If we go that path, would you play next ?

Maybe we should take Aesthetics anyway. Globe Theatre is pretty strong. Any reason to not build it for a Rifles game?

 

[Fippy]

I think if cannons are more liked, we should use that way.
I will play with steel first too ofc

If i am honest, i never build Globe.
Also rarely using drafting, not sure..i always think losing Vass or Bur (with a stronger Cap) is not worth saving some pop.
Wish i could say more about that, but i fear that i formed my opinion about those options long ago and never changed them.

 

[Lain]

Yeah, Globe doesn't seem very popular here. 300 is a big investment too. I started experimenting with it, because in 90% of isolation games I have the same problem: too small army and weak reinforcements. 20-25 units + galleons is the best I can do without crashing the economy long-term .

Globe completely fixes that. I usually build it with overflow from units. For example our Chichen Itza (pig+fish) can probably whip every 4-5 turns while maintaining high pop. Didn't do math, but seems about right. The whipped units stay for HR happiness and once Globe is finished (usually when close to Rifling), 100+ turns of disappear, the whipped units jump into galleons (probably 50% of the army lol) and even HR warriors can be distributed to other cities that need them. Just leave it empty. (And hit Alt+F4 when someone captures it with Galleons like it happened recently )

It's so strong that even with Pyramids I switch into HR (+Bur) when making contact with caravels . Or just don't build Pyramids at all unless SPI/IND

And then we have a steady stream of 1 Rifle/turn for reinforcements while other cities focus on siege, frigates, galleons etc. I love the Globe Theatre. And normal Theatres are cheap enough .

Here we don't have a strong Bureau cap and the core of our army will have 5XP from Vassalage anyway, so maybe a good time to test out Drafting + Globe, what'd you think?

What about Maoi Statues in Mutal ? Only has 6x coast tiles, but good natural production with copper and could skip whipping almost. Building them before Golden Age would be cool.

I have no idea when to start the golden age by the way... before Rifling probably so we get there quicker, but Golden Age with Rifling for civic switch also sounds really nice.

 

[Fippy]

Hmm, we have ball courts..reduces value of Globe?
Maybe too optimistic, but i think with those we will have very few happy problems

In return this should make drafting better, yup.
But i think we can rely on ball courts & forges, and skip theatres + globe.
Moai are great with stone for sure, i also like milking them for gold a bit probably before completing.

Golden Age to speed up Rifling always works well, yup, and no Anarchy for Nationhood.
Ideally we would also have a more popular Reli by then, and use OR for some spreads before switching into Theo near golden age end.
Does not always work and costs some hammers for missios, but worth doing imo if possible..more xp and +1 happy.

 

[dutchfire]

I think Globe Theatre was more popular years ago (perhaps pre-BtS), when mounted was less popular.
If building the Globe, the goal should be to draft (and grow 5->6) that city every 1 or 2 turns. If I count correctly, you need +15 food to grow 5->6. CI (+2 city) can work fish (+4), hill pigs (+3) and three grassland farms (+3) for +12 food per turn, or growth 4 out of 5 turns, giving 4 riflemen per 5 turns. That is a lot.

The main advantage is that you can use this drafting engine ad infinitum, so that it really favors longer wars. The Globe is not so expensive (~3 riflemen) so that pays back quickly enough. Other cities need a theatre, that costs some hammers but at least a theatre is cheap and provides happiness.


---
Perhaps a city by city look is useful. We have a lot of commerce cities that need to move from butter to guns.

Mutal:
Moai statues, keep it big, working tiles. I set the build to Harbor (health, and soon trade routes). After that, it also needs a barracks before starting the war preparation. Replace the mine by a windmill at some point.

Lakhama: Give away tiles and whip this down at some point? Apart from the shared tiles, there is the fish and a few grassland villages/towns.

Chitzen Itza: Globe --> Drafting. At that point stay small (size 5/6), give away tiles

Uxmal: After taking the tiles of Lakhama and Chitzen Itza, this is a real commerce powerhouse. Does it make sense to keep this one a bit larger and working on commerce, or do we also want to whip it down to get an army?

Mayapan: Probably should get some workshops instead of the underdeveloped cottages. Not a lot of food. How to develop this city?

Calakmul: Another city with underdeveloped cottages.

Oxhuitza: Chop those remaining forests into Maoi if possible? To get the money. I actually looked if it is feasible to get Globe Theatre here. Irrigation chain would give 3 grassland farms (+3), grassland pigs(+4), city tile (+2) and a food neutral windmill. Total +9 instead of CIs +12, so it is worse. Grasland workshops and windmills instead?

Quiriga: Seems like this one will never be great. Farms the grasslands to make it a small whipping center with some additional production from the stone+copper?

Xukpi: Whipping seems the only purpose of this place. It might be good to improve the grassland hill soon, so that it has another tile to work at size 2.

 

[Lain]

I think the Globe would definitely be worth it. But I don't want to push this too hard, already feel bad for "rejecting" Cuirs/Cavs . So I am fine either way. But just from hammer perspective, we invest 300 (or 600 counting normal theatres too, but maybe they allow skipping a few Ball Courts) and would surely draft 10+ times from Globe city + all the whips before that, seems like a good investment. We have great land, but a bit poor for production (river cities without food in particular), so I thought this would be a good way to counter that .

Don't know about the religion thing, would be nice if it worked out for sure.

Good thoughts from Dutchfire too. A few cottages were probably overkill, but Calakmul for example will share tiles with clam city and such, so it's going to be fine. Still room for a few workshops. Maybe 1-2 undeveloped cottages can be bulldozed, yep.

So if this continues soon, should we go through tech trades in detail, or anything else to consider? Hmm well Fippy will make the best decisions, guess it's just a question of Aesthetics yes/no. This turn we also have anarchy+Astro bulb, so juicy trades coming up next turn .

Mayb make one-sided trades with AI to get them to "Pleased" quickly?

 

[lymond]

Just my two irrelevant cents here, but why not try Globe for something a little different. I've not used it very much myself, but when I have the drafting was pretty fun. You can abuse the crap out of the city to get it built, if you have a good spot for it...just food food food.

 

[Fippy]

lol you guys like Globe, so it's Globe in CI (very good planning there Dutchfire ~~), i use it so rarely will be fun.
So we will whip units (and theatre ofc) in CI without being worried about stacking unhappy as Lain wrote, until we created enuf overflow for Globe.
Galleons & Trebs are both nice for that, 2 pop whip with forge = 75h and they cost 80, making 3 pops max overflow.

City micro i will use Dutchfire's suggestions, but still have to look.
Overall even smaller cottages (like hamlets) are good at least until Rifling imo with FIN, esp cos we also get a golden age where they give 4c minimum and are food neutral.

Also looking at trades again, Aest & Drama are on our shopping list

 

[Fippy]

Okay trades, we had Currency, map & 40g from Wang.
Almost full value, he would offer Archery + 25g.

From Giggles we could get Alpha & Aest for Optics + 20g.
Peri gives Construction or Calendar for Compass + 10g,
one of those we can also take from Willy (and his 30g).
(and Asoka we can sell the rest of Optics, almost done)

Would give us all 5 techs we want.
We have one sided trade with Willy, fine for relations.
With Giggles we already have +4 fair trade, so i like taking 2 techs here.

 

[Lain]

Yup, sounds all good to me .

 

[Fippy]

Okay i did that turn, we are now in Vass and have Astro.
Asoka added another wonder to his collection with Sistine, and Willy AW.

Wang map shows

Spoiler :

Resi & tech trades

Spoiler :

I opened borders with Willy and Peri, but have not moved or done much else yet.

I see 3 main resis we want, Dye (extra with theatres later), Gold & Rice.

Think fish & pigs for Gold + 6g from Peri looks good.
Cow + 7g from Wang for copper looks okay, not optimal but we could cancel later?
And another pigs for Willy's 6g.
Mainly i would take gpt over more resis (like copper with Asoka), until we really need more happy.

Nothing we can do for tech trades this turn i think.
Getting guilds traded in time seems somewhat unlikely, leaning towards self teching here.
There are certainly advantages if we could trade self-teched guilds for Engineering, and keep Astro for ourselves as long as possible.

Especially Asoka should not be given Astro, he has no open borders cept with us currently.
Looks like a nice and soft first target, close and many coastal cities, has no friends for trades and we should aim at keeping his tech progress low.

 

[Lain]

Yup, resi deals look good. Agree on focusing gpt. Do we also want the rice from Giggles now (for gems) or could we just whip away unhealthiness? Maybe take it. One worker could start roading our second copper, looks like we could get nice deals with it! For example Asoka will surely have 10+ gpt in a few turns and he needs copper . Wine for Dye with Gilgamesh?

Keeping Astro for ourselves should be nice. What about Observatories? Usually don't build them (except capital), but without Bureau maybe needed to improve economy?

I would probably give up on GP from Chichen Itza for now. Even without Globe it has to be whipped a lot... with future Globe we can whip here every 5 turns (maybe add two farms) and basically produce 50% of our army like you said, Trebs and Galleons for 3-pop are very nice. Of course it could run a few scientists/engineer in between, but 20 turns of full specialists would really delay everything?

Not sure about golden age anyway, would be nice to avoid anarchy for Nationhood, but we could also get the GP later and make mass switches after we have more cities. Until then we whip/draft a lot, making golden age a bit less effective. What do you think?

 

[dutchfire]

I would probably give up on GP from Chichen Itza for now. Even without Globe it has to be whipped a lot... with future Globe we can whip here every 5 turns (maybe add two farms) and basically produce 50% of our army like you said, Trebs and Galleons for 3-pop are very nice.

Are 3-pop whips really better than 1-pop rifle drafts?