Kentharu
Zebra Commander
i also agree (just for the sake of agreeing!!!!)
Term III Foreign Ministry: Finding Our Place
- Thread starter Emp.Napoleon
- Start date
Meleager
Stoned as a Statue
we really need to ammend the consitution with something about ministers going missing in action.
And i also agree.
And i also agree.
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
indeed, team captain should set up polls for this btw
not really to urgent in my opion im sure Emp will turn up
not really to urgent in my opion im sure Emp will turn up
Emp.Napoleon
SUPER EMP!
Sorry for my absence, got busy.
Dnuts
I think WC and BW and 1GPT for CoL and Philo
This way we will find out how much they need stuff. If they are smart, they will take it since it will give them quite a upper hand in the war. If they don't like it, we could also promise them we wont trade with TNT. That would be a killer deal for Dnuts.
What do you think?
Dnuts
I think WC and BW and 1GPT for CoL and Philo
This way we will find out how much they need stuff. If they are smart, they will take it since it will give them quite a upper hand in the war. If they don't like it, we could also promise them we wont trade with TNT. That would be a killer deal for Dnuts.
What do you think?
classical_hero
In whom I trust
I think the nutters have lost the plot. I doubt they will go for that deal. But we should still send it too them, since they have no military techs.
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
how about we send that deal along with other "nicer" deals? then we wouldn't be to rude and obnoxious
ie: wheel and WC for CoL (i think someone else posted this somewhere)
wheel for Phil and gold (gpt at this point would be way to important to them since war is hard on the economy as it is)
ie: wheel and WC for CoL (i think someone else posted this somewhere)
wheel for Phil and gold (gpt at this point would be way to important to them since war is hard on the economy as it is)
fe3333au
Deity
I have put a proposed blunt letter in Ken's Thread
Basically it outlines Wheel and Warrior Code traded for Philo and Code of Laws ... they are in no position to ask for a fair deal ... for them it is a matter of time ... they should not be presenting a false she'll be right mate to us ... for them it is a time factor and not a beaker value issue !!!!
Let us be strong ... if we are worried about not getting the techs from them ... remember that they will meet KISS soon and they don't have Wheel
Lets get it happening becasue they are currently requesting for more time ...
Basically it outlines Wheel and Warrior Code traded for Philo and Code of Laws ... they are in no position to ask for a fair deal ... for them it is a matter of time ... they should not be presenting a false she'll be right mate to us ... for them it is a time factor and not a beaker value issue !!!!
Let us be strong ... if we are worried about not getting the techs from them ... remember that they will meet KISS soon and they don't have Wheel
Lets get it happening becasue they are currently requesting for more time ...
Assuming we make a deal with the Donuts for Philosophy and Code of Laws (see the Donut Embassy), what should we do next in relation to trades with KISS? We will temporarily be the tech leader. I see 2 possibilities to try to maintain our lead:
1. Research Republic and drip feed techs to KISS. For example, they do Map Making, Polytheism and Mathematics while we do Republic. Trade Code of Laws, Philosophy and The Wheel for Map Making and Mathematics. The problem is, they will not be able to afford Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Republic from us by the time we complete Republic. We can either give it to them immediately (eliminating our advantage) or make them wait until they can afford it (annoying them). Also, there is the temptation for them to trade with Donuts for example, they can give Donuts Map Making and Mathematics for Code of Laws and Philosophy, then use the same techs to get Republic from us, again eliminating our temporary advantage.
2. Gift Philosophy and Code of Laws to KISS immediately and let them start on Republic with the understanding that they will give it to us immediately on completion. While they are researching Republic, we will complete Map Making (gifted to KISS to even out the beakers for Republic), and Literature. Literature will be ours and ours alone since we will be even with KISS in trade values.
I can see several advantages to this approach. First, we research more techs giving us a greater chance at an SGL. Second, we cement our friendship with KISS by giving them techs immediately. Third, we probably get Republic sooner because KISS can start on it while we complete Masonry (and most likely, they are producing more beakers per turn since they have more citizens). Fourth, we eliminate trade possibilities between KISS and Donuts preventing them from becoming too friendly. Fifth, we can use our monopoly on Literature and scientific trait to build libraries earlier and, along with our free Middle Ages tech, we should be able to develop a more long-lasting tech lead.
The major disadvantage is that we have to trust KISS to give us Republic when the time comes, but I am comfortable with that. We will also need some deft diplomacy to explain our unwillingness to gift Literature, but that shouldnt be any harder than explaining why we wont give them Philosophy or Code of Laws.
1. Research Republic and drip feed techs to KISS. For example, they do Map Making, Polytheism and Mathematics while we do Republic. Trade Code of Laws, Philosophy and The Wheel for Map Making and Mathematics. The problem is, they will not be able to afford Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Republic from us by the time we complete Republic. We can either give it to them immediately (eliminating our advantage) or make them wait until they can afford it (annoying them). Also, there is the temptation for them to trade with Donuts for example, they can give Donuts Map Making and Mathematics for Code of Laws and Philosophy, then use the same techs to get Republic from us, again eliminating our temporary advantage.
2. Gift Philosophy and Code of Laws to KISS immediately and let them start on Republic with the understanding that they will give it to us immediately on completion. While they are researching Republic, we will complete Map Making (gifted to KISS to even out the beakers for Republic), and Literature. Literature will be ours and ours alone since we will be even with KISS in trade values.
I can see several advantages to this approach. First, we research more techs giving us a greater chance at an SGL. Second, we cement our friendship with KISS by giving them techs immediately. Third, we probably get Republic sooner because KISS can start on it while we complete Masonry (and most likely, they are producing more beakers per turn since they have more citizens). Fourth, we eliminate trade possibilities between KISS and Donuts preventing them from becoming too friendly. Fifth, we can use our monopoly on Literature and scientific trait to build libraries earlier and, along with our free Middle Ages tech, we should be able to develop a more long-lasting tech lead.
The major disadvantage is that we have to trust KISS to give us Republic when the time comes, but I am comfortable with that. We will also need some deft diplomacy to explain our unwillingness to gift Literature, but that shouldnt be any harder than explaining why we wont give them Philosophy or Code of Laws.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I think this is brilliant.
I hear what Fe is saying – it does seem like we should be able to squeeze them harder – but we've really tried that twice now – if we keep trying, we're likely to just damage the relationship and we'll ALL be in worse shape.
Making the deal has several key advantages (in addition to the ones Chamnix pointed out)
1) Solidify relationship with D'nuts
2) Make sure TNT doesn’t roll over the top of D'nuts
3) Keeps us as the primary tech contact - not KISS
4) Opens door for future tech trades where we can get some advantage over KISS
While KISS will (and should) remain our primary tech partner – staying in the driver's seat with D'nuts will likely allow us future options to get a tech or two on the side (like Cham's wonderful Literacy suggestion) to start slowly pulling ahead in tech – and still stay on good terms with everyone.
In short - let's do this before it's too late!
Emp.Napoleon
SUPER EMP!
I like this idea too.
fe3333au
Deity
Won't happen now ... those Nixonesque Nutters 
fe3333au
Deity
Foreign Policy Goals
Emp suggested this would be a good place to discuss the goals and long term strategies of the Foreign Ministry ...
Reason
this because the high rate of turns being sent have made it difficult to react diplomaticcally
Summary
KISS ...
>proven friends
>Uber-alliance has been formed
>proven trust and open
D-Nuts
>traded in the past
>standoffish ... and always us initiating and following up contact proposals
>out gamed as they traded with KISS
>KISS currently friendly terms and is guiding them down a certain path
>At war with TNT
TNT
>At war with D-Nuts
>Unresponsive to KISS
>As yet unmet
GOALS
What do we want in the short term?
What do we want in the long term?
Can we trust anyone?
Should we be totally open?
What is our private agenda?
These types of questions should be asked ... so that our diplomats can act swiftly and confidently to situations ... and if necessary others take actions if foreign staff are unavailable due to RL
Emp suggested this would be a good place to discuss the goals and long term strategies of the Foreign Ministry ...
Reason
this because the high rate of turns being sent have made it difficult to react diplomaticcally
Summary
KISS ...
>proven friends
>Uber-alliance has been formed
>proven trust and open
D-Nuts
>traded in the past
>standoffish ... and always us initiating and following up contact proposals
>out gamed as they traded with KISS
>KISS currently friendly terms and is guiding them down a certain path
>At war with TNT
TNT
>At war with D-Nuts
>Unresponsive to KISS
>As yet unmet
GOALS
What do we want in the short term?
What do we want in the long term?
Can we trust anyone?
Should we be totally open?
What is our private agenda?
These types of questions should be asked ... so that our diplomats can act swiftly and confidently to situations ... and if necessary others take actions if foreign staff are unavailable due to RL
fe3333au
Deity
Expansion on KISS Alliance
1. We share virtually everything ...
Everything BUT one ... Goody Huts, I'd prefer us to cover and control the majority) ...
We share intel about other civs as well ... compiling and comparing
We also agree to inform each other about future strategies and actions.
2. Now that TNT and KISS have met everyone ... and we will too as soon as we meet TNT ... all dealing between KISS must be easily explainable as 'normal' trading ... the other teams must be kept in the dark .
3. Research Strategies
TNT ... unknown
KISS ... Republic
D-Nuts ... Wheel -> Horse Back Riding -> Maths
MIA ... MM -> Lit
4. Trade Options ... Still developing
ATM we have Wheel?, Masonry
vs. KISS ... Masonry for CoL
vs. KISS ... ? for Philo and Republic
vs. KISS ... ? for HBR and Maths
vs. KISS ... Wheel for ?
vs. KISS ... MM for ?
vs. KISS ... Lit for ?
KISS vs. D-Nuts ... Republic for HBR and Maths and ?
>>>>>>>>>
Are we happy with this or should we change things ???
EDIT ... I think we have sent Wheel to KISS ??!! ... I'm confused ??? as it was still in the trade screen ...
If we did then we should not have ! ... now KISS must explain how they got Wheel to D-Nuts ...
I will e-mail to KISS
EDIT/EDIT - They have already excepted ... but will explain it by a Goody Pop
Reason enough to get a plan that everyone is aware of and can reference easily and quickly ...
1. We share virtually everything ...
Everything BUT one ... Goody Huts, I'd prefer us to cover and control the majority) ...
We share intel about other civs as well ... compiling and comparing
We also agree to inform each other about future strategies and actions.
2. Now that TNT and KISS have met everyone ... and we will too as soon as we meet TNT ... all dealing between KISS must be easily explainable as 'normal' trading ... the other teams must be kept in the dark .
3. Research Strategies
TNT ... unknown
KISS ... Republic
D-Nuts ... Wheel -> Horse Back Riding -> Maths
MIA ... MM -> Lit
4. Trade Options ... Still developing
ATM we have Wheel?, Masonry
vs. KISS ... Masonry for CoL
vs. KISS ... ? for Philo and Republic
vs. KISS ... ? for HBR and Maths
vs. KISS ... Wheel for ?
vs. KISS ... MM for ?
vs. KISS ... Lit for ?
KISS vs. D-Nuts ... Republic for HBR and Maths and ?
>>>>>>>>>
Are we happy with this or should we change things ???
EDIT ... I think we have sent Wheel to KISS ??!! ... I'm confused ??? as it was still in the trade screen ...
If we did then we should not have ! ... now KISS must explain how they got Wheel to D-Nuts ...
I will e-mail to KISS
EDIT/EDIT - They have already excepted ... but will explain it by a Goody Pop
Reason enough to get a plan that everyone is aware of and can reference easily and quickly ...
Can't KISS gift us CoL, and that way the mistaken Wheel gift is explained?
That way we'd get CoL under our belts, and Kiss has wheel. Win Win, no?
....or have they already played?....
That way we'd get CoL under our belts, and Kiss has wheel. Win Win, no?
....or have they already played?....
fe3333au
Deity
The save is currently with us ...
Wheel can easily be explained by Pop Hut ...
but if we are going to our own Hut Poppin, we had better get CoL and Philo from them ... be a waste to get Philo
Assuming we get Philo from KISS, that means we are going for HBR ... which doesn't really help us because KISS will get that from Nuts, and Nuts have nothing to give us as a trade that we are not getting from KISS anyway ... I'd prefer not to pop them, but if this is the best placement for the cities then go for it ...
Wheel can easily be explained by Pop Hut ...
but if we are going to our own Hut Poppin, we had better get CoL and Philo from them ... be a waste to get Philo
Assuming we get Philo from KISS, that means we are going for HBR ... which doesn't really help us because KISS will get that from Nuts, and Nuts have nothing to give us as a trade that we are not getting from KISS anyway ... I'd prefer not to pop them, but if this is the best placement for the cities then go for it ...
I am uncomfortable with KISS planning tech paths with the Donuts. I understand it was good to get Code of Laws and Philosophy to lead to Republic, but I think with respect to future tech trades, 3 is a crowd.
What do we (meaning MIA and KISS) have to gain by trading with Donuts? All 3 of us will advance more quickly, but so what? The goal of trading in a multiplayer game should not be an overall fast tech pace to reach the Modern Age more quickly, but should instead be to gain a tech advantage over the other teams. The way we are playing this, 3 teams will have a tech advantage over the fourth. The team that stands to gain the most from that approach is the Donuts because they are the most likely to gain TNT’s land.
The way I see it, MIA and/or KISS should only trade with Donuts if the beaker cost is significantly in our favor. If Donuts complete Horseback Riding and Mathematics, then they can have Map Making (assuming we haven’t popped or researched either HBR or Math by then). I don’t see any way they can pay fair value for Republic so it should not be traded to them. While they are researching Republic, MIA and KISS will pull ahead so that Donuts will never be useful to us again.
The city sites near the huts will not be settled that quickly (I think we may go land-grab before settling there), but I think it is worthwhile to pop techs that we would have gotten from Donuts because that way we don’t have to pay Donuts for them, and we can gain our tech advantage sooner. I agree that it is a waste to pop Philosophy or Code of Laws.
What do we (meaning MIA and KISS) have to gain by trading with Donuts? All 3 of us will advance more quickly, but so what? The goal of trading in a multiplayer game should not be an overall fast tech pace to reach the Modern Age more quickly, but should instead be to gain a tech advantage over the other teams. The way we are playing this, 3 teams will have a tech advantage over the fourth. The team that stands to gain the most from that approach is the Donuts because they are the most likely to gain TNT’s land.
The way I see it, MIA and/or KISS should only trade with Donuts if the beaker cost is significantly in our favor. If Donuts complete Horseback Riding and Mathematics, then they can have Map Making (assuming we haven’t popped or researched either HBR or Math by then). I don’t see any way they can pay fair value for Republic so it should not be traded to them. While they are researching Republic, MIA and KISS will pull ahead so that Donuts will never be useful to us again.
The city sites near the huts will not be settled that quickly (I think we may go land-grab before settling there), but I think it is worthwhile to pop techs that we would have gotten from Donuts because that way we don’t have to pay Donuts for them, and we can gain our tech advantage sooner. I agree that it is a waste to pop Philosophy or Code of Laws.
Chamnix the Succint said:
This has a few delicious consequences. If KISSMIA get Republic before TNT or DNUTS, KISSMIA will start to pull away very quickly while the other continent sorts themselves out. KISSMIA can capitalize on this only if TNT and DNUTS continue the hostilities. DNUT should be lulled into thinking it has a tech alliance with KISS. But I think that KISS should not follow through on the trading. What I'm trying to figure out is how to have KISS backstab DNUTS without 'playing dishonorably'. I don't know how Whomp and Tubby would feel about it, but that would really give this continent a strong lead.
Once we had a lead, we could both capitalize on it by remaining tech partners. No matter how hard the other continent tried, we would continually pull farther ahead: 2 palaces + 2 forbidden palaces vs. 2 (or one!) non-republic, wartorn, hatefilled palaces.
Chamnix is right that we have nothing to gain by trading with DNUTS assuming we'll get philo and CoL from KISS as agreed. I do trust KISS, but I know not everyone does. That's healthy. As for KISS planning the research path with DNUTS, I think it's fine as long as KISS doesn't wind up giving DNUTS Republic.
Maybe there's a way to get DNUTS to do something to vile that would offer KISS a legitimate 'out' before they trade Republic?
Or just decide not to deal at all with them from the get go. The only risk there is that DNUTS won't go for the tech's we'd like from them.
After calmer reflection, my earlier panic may have been overdone. Our deal with KISS states:
Since Donuts cannot afford it anytime soon (even Horseback Riding, Mathematics, and Polytheism won’t get them there, and we might be able to snag one or two of those first either from huts or in exchange for Map Making), KISS cannot send them Republic without our permission. Hopefully, KISS isn’t making any promises to Donuts that they can’t keep…
Since Donuts cannot afford it anytime soon (even Horseback Riding, Mathematics, and Polytheism won’t get them there, and we might be able to snag one or two of those first either from huts or in exchange for Map Making), KISS cannot send them Republic without our permission. Hopefully, KISS isn’t making any promises to Donuts that they can’t keep…
To be safe we should point that out to them, in a constructive, positive way. After all, they wound up giving DNUTS way more than DNUTS would have received from us, and if KISSMIA had been effectively coordinated, DNUTS would have been shoehorned into a less favorable deal.
They apologized, and gave us gold, but really the biggest winner was DNUTS, with KISSMIA at a resultant disadvantage.
On the other hand, this episode 'proves' to DNUTS that KISSMIA doesn't exist, and that KISSMIA is not coordinated. Could be a longer-term misinformative benefit.
If KISS is making promises they can't keep, it benfits KISSMIA. I will not lose sleep if DNUTS have a negative opinion of KISS. They already have a negative opinion of us, and they are not friends with TNT. KISSMIA remains the strongest entity in the world for the near-term.
They apologized, and gave us gold, but really the biggest winner was DNUTS, with KISSMIA at a resultant disadvantage.
On the other hand, this episode 'proves' to DNUTS that KISSMIA doesn't exist, and that KISSMIA is not coordinated. Could be a longer-term misinformative benefit.
If KISS is making promises they can't keep, it benfits KISSMIA. I will not lose sleep if DNUTS have a negative opinion of KISS. They already have a negative opinion of us, and they are not friends with TNT. KISSMIA remains the strongest entity in the world for the near-term.
fe3333au
Deity
I am still waiting for the master plan to be sent ... we can digest it and then, could I suggest a formal AIM chat with KISS ... where we have some of our strategists present ... it will be alot smoother and focused than the first we had and some of these issues can be addressed?
Whomp is Chicago and is active at evening ... anyone interested ???
Whomp is Chicago and is active at evening ... anyone interested ???
