"The Bad Sequel": Sullla's Analysis of Civ5

There are people who enjoy micromanaging tiles and such, and those content to leave things in "default" mode. Civ 5 seems geared to those who enjoy "default". (Which, frankly, is good for me. :) )

I don't know that all of the game's issues are inherently unfixable. For example:
- Allowing 2 noncombat units per tile rather than 1, to help with the worker rushing, or to figure out where a general should stand.
- Allow units to pass through friendly opposing units. (I hate when I have open borders with my neighbor and they stick a guy in my way so I have to go around.)
- Redesign trade routes to only count cities 1 or 2 cities away from the capital, but lower road maintenance by half or 3/4ths. Would encourage a more reasonable road structure, without ending up with the "road on every tile" mess.
- A dumb AI can be made smarter, given effort.

It make take some time, maybe even an expansion, but I don't think 5's totally a lost cause, and there's things I like about it over 4 that make me continue to play it.
 
I disagree. That it is a hollow remake of its predecessors does make it more disappointing, yes, but even looking it as a game in general I think it is quite bad.

The only good thing about it is that it made me look into civ4, which I'd barely touched before.

I've played a lot of games. The ones we hear about are usually the good ones but there are tons of games that are far far worse than Civ V.
 
Sam. If you think Sulla's reasons for blaming 1UPT for other balance problems are incorrect, you might as well tell us why. Sulla explained clearly how one thing affects the next, and offers quotes form other recognized members of the community. I think that just saying Sulla made an irresponsible claim with no other explanation in this case seems... irresponsible?

I thought it was rather obvious, but if it isn't, here are a few things that I think are design decisions that were completely unrelated to 1UPT:

* Horribly imbalanced civs
* Imbalanced natural wonders
* Diplomacy interface and options
* Default length of diplomacy trades
* Research agreements instead of tech trading
* Diplomacy insults for no apparent reason
* No replay or graphs; not much of an end-game reward in terms of eye candy or history of your civ
* Quality of civilopedia
* Forced Steam installation
* Barbarians can spawn in line of sight

(and many more unrelated issues...but that makes a good list for starters)

Please, tell me how these design decisions were somehow FORCED by 1UPT?

And no, I did *not* just pick random stuff out of the hat...this is stuff cited directly by the article Sulla wrote as being problems with Civ V (and he makes valid points on many of these IMHO)...but I do not accept that 1UPT FORCED these bad design decisions, despite Sulla's claim that everything that I have listed and more was forced by 1UPT. Please, enlighten me....

In other words, how does this:

Sulla said:
One Unit Per Tile restriction is the core problem with Civ5's design. Everything is based around this restriction. Everything.

FORCE these decisions:

Sulla said:
* Barbarian units can spawn regardless of line of sight. It is maddening to move next to a barbarian camp, and have a new full-strength barb magically appear out of thin air on a tile where you had full visibility. Immersion-breaking? There's a reason why barbs could only spawn in fogged tiles in past Civ games...

* Horsemen and archers/crossbows were both nerfed in the patch to reduce their combat values against cities. Simultaneously, cities were buffed to be much stronger and heal damage much faster. In order to capture cities now, you need strong melee units or siege units. There's just one problem: strong melee units means swords/longswords, and siege units means catapults/trebuchets. All of those units require iron. What happens if you don't have iron? Currently, the answer appears to be "you are screwed", and enemy cities can only be taken with very heavy losses using non-iron units. This is not an example of good design.

* The food box graphic is still broken on the city screen, and also shows as full regardless of actual food count (see screenshots above). The whole city interface is just bad in general; it's far more difficult than it should be to swap tiles around and set up a production queue.

* The interface for diplomacy is still awful. You have to click between three different screens to see all of the information, and there are further scroll bars on each individual screen - you can only see information on three AI leaders at a time. With more than 50% of screen space not even being utilized, this is atrociously bad design.

* The default length for a trading agreement is 30 turns. That's a really long time, and there's no way to change it. (On Marathon speed, the default length is 90 turns!) It's also impossible to cancel Open Borders once they've been signed, so sorry, sucks to be you if conditions change 25 turns later and you want to remove those Open Borders. The whole system is practically begging players to declare war and invalidate these agreements, pulling lump sum gold out of the AI civs for free. By the way, you can also trade a resource for lump sum gold, pillage your own resource, and then immediately re-sell the same good again once it's re-connected, all without any kind of reputation hit or penalty. I think this all could have been handled much better.

* Research agreements are a broken game mechanic; you can get any technology in the game for a paltry 250 gold (does not increase over time, which rather breaks the lategame!) and it's possible to game the system by investing one turn of research into all of the techs you DON'T want, thereby choosing your own "random" free tech. Completely exploitative and game breaking, turning every research agreement into a free Great Scientist. Note that fixing this bug wouldn't solve the issue either, because then research agreements would deliver something extremely powerful or hopelessly weak out of sheer chance.

* Occasionally AI leaders will pop up in diplomacy simply to insult your civilization in some way. What is the reason for this? Does it serve any point whatsoever? I can't imagine that someone thought it would be fun to receive random insults like this.

* Even after several patches, the various civilizations remain totally unbalanced. Winners like Greece, France, or Babylon absolutely destroy losing civs like America or Ottomans. Other civ abilities are wildly random, like Germany and the new downloadable Spain. Perhaps you'll get a ton of warriors for free, or pull hundreds of gold out of the air for finding natural wonders. Perhaps you'll get absolutely nothing. This is textbook bad design: civs with abilities that are either crazy overpowered or completely useless, with random chance determining the outcome.

* All of the victory conditions in Civ5 are pretty badly designed, especially the new Conquest (get all the capitals!) and Diplomatic (buy the city states!) versions. The static endgame screen, still with no replays or graphs, is an embarassment to the franchise.

* The Civiliopedia and "Official Manual" remain laughable, with vague information or flat-out misdocumentation rampant, and will likely never be fixed now. It's the sort of thing you expect from an indie game working on a tiny budget, and feels incredibly amateurish and sloppy in a flagship strategy game.

* Forced Steam installation. We can argue about Steam all day, and the forums have been full of the back and forth. Personally, I simply wish it were an option and not mandatory. I don't think it does much of anything to stop piracy, and I hate the fact that if Steam goes out of business, I can never play the game I purchased again. I find the downloadable content system, selling off extra civilizations one by one, to be a distasteful business model. Ugh.

(both quotes from Sulla, in the same article!)

Sam
 
If we want to fix something, we must get to the cause. What is the cause? Whenever there is a issue, look to the cause not the effect and the problem will be resolved it is that simple. But what is the true cause?

It is our mind that generates unrealistic expectations (and believe me they were unrealistic!) We keep looking to something external to us (like a game) to fix our woes and make us happy. We have been taught to do that. But we never find that "thing" not because we are blind, but because there is no such thing (it does not exist). We keep searching for it not because we are stupid, but because we are quite naturally creatures of habit.

We restore peace of mind by focusing on the cause of the problem (our perception) and stop focusing on illusions that do not work. Why would we want to get ourselves happy ever searching for a fallacy, a mirage of the way we think, an effect of a hidden cause we do not see but that is right between our eye balls? We start to take responsibility for our heads, the true cause, and we need go no further than that! All our expectations will then resolve peacefully.

We would relax. We would get less hyped (because the resolution to our problems is always available and we do not have to buy something to fix it any more (although we still will might wish to buy something and do buy things). The gaming industry (a system that does whatever is necessary to sell games) will temporarily fight back with a few more temptations for a while. It is content for us to spiral into the happy/sad cycle so that it can sell games not because it is evil, but because that is the gaming industries habitual response to the habits of gamers that have insatiable needs and expectations from their games.

But the industry is yet another end product, an effect of our mind, we make the industry and it is a by-product of how we think. If we were to calm down and relax by focusing on the true cause of our problems...

(a mind that that continually looks for something other than itself, to fix itself)

...the industry would respond and it's habits would change in response and the hype would be less intense. The marketing departments would change their strategy and you would find that the quality of the games would probably improve again because there would be less heat and more light. There is light when we are inspired and we are inspired when we get to the cause of a problem and fix it. That is when we get inspired. We do not fix something by hacking at it and then throwing it in the bin (there is nothing fundamentally wrong with Civ5 except for what we expected of it). We fix anything and everything by getting to the true cause. That is when we can start to enjoy games again and that is when the "quality" of the games will improve (where our expectations by and large match with what the game delivers and visa versa). The rest is just a vicious spiral of happiness/sadness always missing the point unwittingly spawning an insatiable gaming industry that feeds on our unrealistic desires.

But I don't know that and I am describing an idea that exists in my mind (an effect of the way that I think) and as such it may have truth, but it probably does not work in the way that I think that it does.

Cheers

Amen. Read and heed. Good advice for new players. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. :crazyeye:
 
I thought it was rather obvious, but if it isn't, here are a few things that I think are design decisions that were completely unrelated to 1UPT:

* Horribly imbalanced civs
* Imbalanced natural wonders
* Diplomacy interface and options
* Default length of diplomacy trades
* Research agreements instead of tech trading
* Diplomacy insults for no apparent reason
* No replay or graphs; not much of an end-game reward in terms of eye candy or history of your civ
* Quality of civilopedia
* Forced Steam installation
* Barbarians can spawn in line of sight

(and many more unrelated issues...but that makes a good list for starters)

Please, tell me how these design decisions were somehow FORCED by 1UPT?

And no, I did *not* just pick random stuff out of the hat...this is stuff cited directly by the article Sulla wrote as being problems with Civ V (and he makes valid points on many of these IMHO)...but I do not accept that 1UPT FORCED these bad design decisions, despite Sulla's claim that everything that I have listed and more was forced by 1UPT. Please, enlighten me....

In other words, how does this:



FORCE these decisions:



(both quotes from Sulla, in the same article!)

Sam

He explained it. Rather completely and concisely. It all made perfect sense to me. And, no, not ALL (EVERY SINGLE ONE) problems extend from the 1upt rule. But a good number do, and it is a major design flaw.

In any case, I'll stick with Civ3.
 
I thought it was rather obvious, but if it isn't, here are a few things that I think are design decisions that were completely unrelated to 1UPT:

* Horribly imbalanced civs
* Imbalanced natural wonders
* Diplomacy interface and options
* Default length of diplomacy trades
* Research agreements instead of tech trading
* Diplomacy insults for no apparent reason
* No replay or graphs; not much of an end-game reward in terms of eye candy or history of your civ
* Quality of civilopedia
* Forced Steam installation
* Barbarians can spawn in line of sight

(and many more unrelated issues...but that makes a good list for starters)

Please, tell me how these design decisions were somehow FORCED by 1UPT?
Sam

He never attached those flaws to 1UPT. Instead, 1UPT is guilty for low production rates, big city nefring and other such... There are obviously other flaws besides those produced by 1UPT.
 
I haven't had the time to play much Civ V yet in fact I haven't even completed a game for much the same reasons as Sulla. I concluded from my first 2 games where i only reached the Renaissance era that the game seemed to lack the same depth and fun as Civ IV did but thought I needed more games before i could really judge it.
Anyway has anyone thought about trying to solve this 1UPT disappointment by for example enabling stacks to be used only while being attached to a Great General? This might create far more interesting military strategies and a popular choice for the use of the Great General. Whether the stack gains experience as well could be discussed further.
 
From what I can tell, the game didn't deliver on its promises. We were "sold" one game with all the hype and handed another when it was released. The bugs aren't even part of the equation; we were told the game would be X and it turned out to be Y.

I concur. I've never had to play a civ game with *so many* Mods in play-at the same time-just to make the game a *passable* experience for me, & that's POST-PATCH. Seriously, they promised us Civ5, & what we got was closer to CivRev 2-just with better graphics. Shame, Firaxis, Shame!

Aussie.
 
Some people have decided they just don't like the game, that's fine. But then stop playing it and move on with your life then. Apparently he hasn't even played one game all the way through after the patch but he has this whole mile long rant about it. It's not about criticizing the game, it's about justifying your own preconceived dislike of it. There's a nice story about how one unit per tile is inherently flawed and therefore the game has to suck, but that's all it is - a story.

I'm sorry, but I paid about $90 for a game that I was promised would be "a big sloppy kiss" to the die-hard Civ fans, only to discover I'd bought a game built to attract the casual gamer-something that even one of its lead designers admitted to in an interview. That's called FALSE AND MISLEADING ADVERTISING. Now they either work to make this game live up to their initial hype-or they return me the money they took from me!

Aussie.
 
He never attached those flaws to 1UPT. Instead, 1UPT is guilty for low production rates, big city nefring and other such... There are obviously other flaws besides those produced by 1UPT.

Everything means something else to you than it does to me, then -- particularly when repeated for emphasis that he meant in fact *everything*.

I still disagree. Low production rates is due to tile yields and slower border growth, neither of which has to do with 1UPT. Imagine you made Civ IV only allow 1UPT; would it then be forced into low tile production and smaller borders with slower growth? I don't think so.

I will grant that automatic city defense does relate to 1UPT, but to me automatic city defense is a good thing. I think city defense was perfect pre-patch but now the city heal rate needs to be reverted. But, I don't think it is fundamentally flawed. The actual flaw is the military victory condition of being the last one with your capitol (doesn't even require you to capture all capitols)...since that was too easy, they decided to make capturing cities harder, instead of increasing the difficulty of that victory condition instead. I definitely don't see how any of the victory conditions (and particularly the military victory condition) is tied to 1UPT.

I don't see how tech tied to population and not trade/currency stems from 1UPT either, and that to me seems like a major issue Sulla has with the game.

It is harder to write an AI for the 1UPT game because the AI requires tactical knowledge as well, but there are many games that have successfully written AIs for 1UPT games, so I think the real issue here is with management and/or manpower, not with the design concept.

I'm not picking just minor things here. I read the case, and I disagree on most points when he attributes them to 1UPT, although I agree with a lot of the points when taken by themselves. My basis for thought is, if you started with Civ IV and modded it to be 1UPT, would that then force other design decisions incorporated in Civ V?

It's obviously fine for Sulla to think 1UPT is not the right way to go (although it is not my line of thought), but I think he grossly overstated his point...even though he made some other good points in the article.

Sam
 
Low production rates is due to tile yields and slower border growth, neither of which has to do with 1UPT.
This is the point.

While neither of these features has anything to do with 1UPT if you don't reduce the tile yields and slow the border pops, then you generate too many hammers and (after you have filled every tile with a unit) you have nothing to put those hammers into. With 1UPT there are only so many units you can build. Thus to cure this issue (nothing to build), you have to reduce the tile yield (or something else similar). In the end, it is 1UPT that forced you to change something else in your game set up.

Its not a causal effect, it is a 'flow on' effect.
 
This is the point.

While neither of these features has anything to do with 1UPT if you don't reduce the tile yields and slow the border pops, then you generate too many hammers and (after you have filled every tile with a unit) you have nothing to put those hammers into. With 1UPT there are only so many units you can build. Thus to cure this issue (nothing to build), you have to reduce the tile yield (or something else similar). In the end, it is 1UPT that forced you to change something else in your game set up.

Its not a causal effect, it is a 'flow on' effect.

The cure is to make units die more frequently. Remove the instant heal upgrade, improve the AI's combat ability ten fold, and bring production rates closer to the Civ IV level and the problem will be solved.

The unit maintenance mechanic is already good enough to keep people from "over massing" troops to begin with.
 
The cure is to make units die more frequently. Remove the instant heal upgrade, improve the AI's combat ability ten fold, and bring production rates closer to the Civ IV level and the problem will be solved.

The unit maintenance mechanic is already good enough to keep people from "over massing" troops to begin with.

I've explained repeatedly how 1UPT makes the combat engine much more difficult. There is no magic "improve the AI 10-fold button", the game breaks because the AI problem for 1UPT is much harder, so the combat AI is much worse!

Attempts to bring production rates closer to Civ IV levels result in bogged down impossible to move armies. For all the complaints about doom stacks, at least you didn't have to move units 1 at a time!

1UPT is a spectacular failure and I hope Civ VI gets away from it. I think the best plan for the future is a CTP like 9UPT system or failing that a return to no tile-limits, and AI's that can move units in the order they look at them without penalty!
 
I've explained repeatedly how 1UPT makes the combat engine much more difficult. There is no magic "improve the AI 10-fold button", the game breaks because the AI problem for 1UPT is much harder, so the combat AI is much worse!

I refuse to believe that an AI can't be written that deals with hex-based tactical combat effectively. It just needs a ton more "look-ahead" than it has now.


Attempts to bring production rates closer to Civ IV levels result in bogged down impossible to move armies. For all the complaints about doom stacks, at least you didn't have to move units 1 at a time!

There are other ways to deal with giant armies.. prohibitive maintenance cost, happiness loss, army limits based on population.. you could, in theory, tweak it such that buildings build much faster, but when you're out of buildings you want to build you're far better off dumping into research/gold than building another unit.

Although the AI isn't particularly good at it yet, I'm enjoying 1UPT far more than than Stack of Doom, and hope they don't give up on it..
 
The cure is to make units die more frequently. Remove the instant heal upgrade, improve the AI's combat ability ten fold, and bring production rates closer to the Civ IV level and the problem will be solved.

The unit maintenance mechanic is already good enough to keep people from "over massing" troops to begin with.

This is only one of a nearly infinite number of solutions. Basically you can make any ol' game you want with 1upt, and it can be a great game, a mediocre game, or a bad game. Nobody should think that you can't make a great Civ game with 1upt.
 
There are other ways to deal with giant armies.. prohibitive maintenance cost, happiness loss, army limits based on population..
All destructive solutions, penalties. Civ5 is full of it.

I've tried to play a few games with more units per hex, but then new problems occured.
Only the tooltip reveals how many units are on a hex.
You can't group them.
When you attack a stack, the AI defends with the most wounded unit first.
Another problem, the flanking bonus counts for every unit on a hex.

The combat system is also questionable.
Every unit has max 10 hitpoints, but during a battle a random number (0-4?)
will also substract an amount of hitpoints.
No tactical plan can work with this kind of randomness.
Experience points are fixed. No matter how good or bad the combat odds.
 
I refuse to believe that an AI can't be written that deals with hex-based tactical combat effectively. It just needs a ton more "look-ahead" than it has now.




There are other ways to deal with giant armies.. prohibitive maintenance cost, happiness loss, army limits based on population.. you could, in theory, tweak it such that buildings build much faster, but when you're out of buildings you want to build you're far better off dumping into research/gold than building another unit.

Although the AI isn't particularly good at it yet, I'm enjoying 1UPT far more than than Stack of Doom, and hope they don't give up on it..

I do work in AI, and I can tell you right now that 1UPT needs far-more resources (orders of magnitude worse) as a problem than regular unlimited units per tile. This is just the application of basic complexity theory to the problem. What are you basing your "belief" on, blind-faith?

As for look-ahead, you talk as if this is easy or free, it's a very expensive process. Note that one of the complaints about the current version of CiV 5 is the significant wait time at EOT, if you talk about using the kind of resources that make a better AI, I think you are talking about losing a lot of players to the insufferable wait.

In Civ 4, if you had 20 units the AI could look at only one unit and decide where to move it, the only portion of the program that had to look at broader information was at a higher level and could abstract away details like how to move units. It could deal with units in an arbitrary order, it didn't have to consider moving units in a different order, or how the actions of one unit interfered with another. In Civ5, if you want to move a unit, you have to look at combinations and orders. So instead of a linear problem (which of the 18 tiles that this unit is capable of reaching this turn do I move to?) you end up with a quadratic one (Which order of moving units enables all/as many as possible of my units to reach the tiles I want them to be on?).

With 20 units, each with 2 moves and all tiles having movement cost 1 (simplification for calculation), there are 18 possible tiles that each unit can go to so the computer considers each unit in isolation and considers only 360 options. With 20 units, there are 2,432,902,008,176,640,000 possible orderings of those units. Even if you localize to an area say the 18 tiles in which say 10 of the 20 units are located then there are 3,628,800 possible orderings (It's back to the number for 20 units if you consider moving units 1 tile, moving other units then moving the unit the other tile, which may be necessary for solving the problem). Keep in mind this is just the ordering of the units we still have to multiply by 18 for the possible locations to move to. I think if you're very clever about it and use state of the art heuristics etc, you can probably do what the CiV 4 methods did by considering 360 options by considering 3,600,000 options, or roughly 10,000 times as bad. I imagine they are already doing quite good at this since the wait time isn't anywhere near 10,000 times what it was in civ IV, but the tradeoff is things like archers firing at a scout and blocking in 4 pikemen.
 
Sulla hits on most of the flaws in CiV; but his conclusion that 1 upt is the major factor is wrong. There are other factors, many small ones that just add up, like the barbarian galley that sinks a modern steel transport with its arrows, or unit that decides to travel all the way around the world to get to a tile two tiles away that is temporally blocked, or my personal favorite...You have large number units near my territory, when their Civ is half a world away.

Granted, 1 upt is flawed, particularly later in the game when you can afford many units; but given the choice of that, over the "stack of doom', I'll take the 1 upt. This is my personal preference, one shaped by the types of games I prefer to play.
My favorite game of all time is Panzer General 2, followed closely by SMACX, Civ 2, Civ 4 BTS, then AOE ROR. When CiV was announced, I was thrilled that some of my favorite games features where being added all in one game! I pre-ordered the collectors addition! I don't normally layout $100 bucks on any game, particularly so if I've not demoed it; but this is a Civ game, how bad could it be? We'll the bad is, very bad, and the good is just "Ok" or "Potentially Good" (with needed patches).

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...

I know a lot of Civ players like the 'Stack of Doom', I never hated it...just thought it was too unrealistic. I realize that Civ is not historically accurate, but it is based on real history, real civilizations, with their, for the most part, unique civilization traits. Thinking of history got me thinking one previous games I loved, and what made them work.

Don't reinvent the wheel, "borrow" the design!

PG2, addressed the 1 upt with a 100 unit limit, period, simple but effective. Modders built units like TD's (tank destroyers, self propelled anti tank guns) with attached infantry, slower than normal TD's, but could fight in cities and tackle entrenched units more effectively than normal TD's. This is also historically correct, armored units often moved with foot infantry intermixed.

So Civ could allow some unit types to stack. Stacking should have some benefits and drawbacks. A drawback would be a Knight on the same tile as a Swordsman, the Knight loses some power and movement as it cannot maneuver well when intermixed. Maybe mobility units like Knights and Tanks should not be able to stack with same unit types.

3 units per tile seems reasonable to me, and could be graphically represented without hovering over a tile to see what is in it.

Cities could also be allowed to garrison 1 to 10 units based on their size.
ICS - small civs vs large civs- unit promotions and support.

Small civs could be allowed better promotions to buy, to compete with massive armies of large civs.

PG2 also had a 'Deployment Feature', you could pre-purchase units and deploy them later if needed; Or later, if all your deployment tiles where occupied. The deployment concept would work great in Civ, think about it, you pre-purchase units, pay half the maintenance cost when "un-deployed", and deploy them when in need. Maybe you have to wait a few turns to 'Call up the Reserves", as well. There are many ways this could help avoid this: Carpet of doom

This may even help avoid some game crashes caused by rendering so many units.
PG2 has "Core Units" and "Auxiliary Units". In Civ this might work like so: Core units you control, and Aux units, you give long term orders to. Imagine you as the "Supreme Commander" are asked by your General in "Alpha sector what to do? It might go something like this: The General in Alpha sector asked you permission to attack advancing units. You get a list of options...Stay in a defensive position, recon out but do not initiate an attack, recon out and skirmish the advancing units, attack them! Of course this would be no fun currently, because the AI is brain dead.

SMAC is my favorite all-time Civ game, not because it's futuristic, but because it has fast turns and you mod your units in game. Imagine a Civ late game that takes just a few seconds between turns on a large map, and does not crash, well unless you've played SMAC, you would say it doesn't exist.

City governors where great, many, many options to set for them, basically you set them up and forget about them, and focus on your core production cities. Again, this speeds up the game, and one less thing that pops up for you to do that may cause a crash.
The in-game design workshop in SMACX was great! Very fast, clean and crash free! Imagine that! Basically you got predesigned units automatically, but can design units as the situation calls for...need cheap aunits for attack, defensive units, ships with AA guns, better movement or expensive units that have multiple enhancements, many features for units could be added.

Yes SMAC had its flaws, by mid game you where either obviously going to win easily or you had no chance, rarely a tough fight until the end of the game.
Civ 2 was great because it was the last game in Civ series that did not crash often from mid game on. And the AI actually used ships in Fleets rather than single unit kamikaze actions. For the record: my system runs any game, on the highest settings, for hours, without any crashes, except Civ V! Win7 Ult, dual Asus 450's in sli, i7 930 OC 21%, 12gb ram, dual Raptor hd in raid0.

Age of Empires Rise of Rome, AOE ROR was great because it was infinitely playable in multiplayer. Great games until the last tree on the map cut down. I played many, many hours of great online competition. The unit graphics where nice, even by today's Civ standards, the terrain was basic, but much better than the very ugly minimum civ settings. Crashes happened occasionally, but you could rejoin a game. Civ V multiplayer is a sham, a disgrace to the franchise, SMAC, ten years ago worked much better.

The handwriting is on the wall...

Sulla says he's seen game companies go down this road before, I've seen it too. Resting or just profiting on their laurels. It's time for Sid to step up and fix this game or go right to Civ 6. Civ is last great game of the Turn based genre, and the only one this "old boy" can use his wit on instead of my slower reaction times RTS games take.
 
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