The Fifty First State

[bhsup]

..then you may want to reconsider. Because despite your intentions, the confederate flag is universally seen as a symbol of the south's desire to cling to the slavery economy.

Wow, do you ever need a new definition for universal.

 

[Farm Boy]

Wow, do you ever need a new definition for universal.

Not sure the New Yawker has ever been south of the Mason Dixon line. It's easier to be "right" if you ignore the horrors of war and go with a clear paladin vs. death knight scenario. We Americans truly are great at that mental game.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So pointing out that the Civil War wasn't all about slavery is saying that "slavery wasn't all a bad thing"?

Yup, because that's exactly what it was about. Plus, everything he said about how it wasn't all bad that you ignored in your large font, crazy colors attempt to hide the obvious.

 

[NickyJ]

Umm, no, that wasn't all that it was about. There were far, far more reasons to secede than that. And the large font is to point out what you want to block out. Just trying to help you notice them a bit more before you make more ignorant remarks.

 

[GhostWriter16]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=459436&page=8
post #144

Boom.

Oh, and by the way, he wasn't just talking about Biblical slavery, he was talking about SLAVERY IN THE USA/CSA. And making that the point that CSA wasn't all that bad or wrong.

Awaiting your apology...oh wait, that makes a very small assumption on my part, namely that you aren't a self-serving hipocrit. Do you want me to find all of the baseless/unsourced assertions you have made? At least mine have fact behind them.

Really did like you NickJ.

Awaiting an apology? Why on Earth would he apologize when you totally butchered my post apart?

If you'll recall, I recently compared the CSA to Iraq. I don't exactly have a high opinion of them, and I'd certainly think any country practicing their economic system in the modern day would deserve economic sanctions.

That doesn't change the fact that they did choose to secede, which is a just and proper right to have. It doesn't matter that only the white males had a choice to vote for those people, since it was the same thing in the North as well.

My point in pointing out the familial situation that frequently developed between master and slave was to illustrate that not ALL slaves were as cruely treated. In fact, most weren't. It doesn't change the fact that they did deserve the option to go free (Some voluntarily stayed, which should be fine) and to those slaves who were poorly treated, I am not minimizing what they went through.

But to act like the CSA is just one step behind the Nazi Holocaust in terms of evil is a bit of an overstatement. Honestly, I wouldn't exactly consider them all that much more evil than the Founding Fathers considering they all owned slaves. Notably, Robert E. Lee was also opposed to slavery, but joined the Confederates out of state loyalty.

@GhostWriter16:
if you are sincere in this:


..then you may want to reconsider. Because despite your intentions, the confederate flag is universally seen as a symbol of the south's desire to cling to the slavery economy. Perhaps that's unfair, but that's the way it is.

Other things also have unfortunate negative connotations due to purely accidental historical contingencies. Charlie Chaplin in the 2nd most recognized person to have sported a widely popular style of facial hair. Know who the 1st most recognized person is?

So imagine, if you will, a vegetarian growing a 'Hitler Moustache' in order to raise awareness of vegetarianism, but then acting offended when people assume he's a Nazi.
"What?? You think this is about lebensraum, aryanism, and the jewish problem? No, silly! I'm a vegetarian! Where on earth did you get all those other crazy ideas??"

This is EXACTLY what you're doing when you choose a confederate flag but then claim anything other than slavery.

Get real. The 'rebel' flag is a symbol of slavery, white supremacy, and racism - rightly or wrongly - and claiming you are using it in a different aspect is pedantry that will be lost on 99% of forum users. You're not stupid, so I'm sure you know this, which is why I'm calling you out on it.

So go ahead and use it, just realize that EVERYONE will be reading it as an endorsement of slavery, as opposed to your ostensible claim of something or other about a state's right to secede from blah blah blah... and you really have no valid reason to protest our protestations.

Maybe you should make an avatar that more clearly represents your views on a state's right to secede so that the rest of us can understand it at a glance... maybe an embryo extracting itself from the uterine lining? Or one of the apostles fleeing the Last Supper tableau?

Here's the thing, that's not really accurate. A more apt comparison would be the Hindu use of a Swastika perhaps, to a Western person it does symbolize horiffic oppression and the Holocaust, but to the Hindus, its a religious symbol that has nothing to do with killing millions at all.

Or what Farm Boy says:

Not sure the New Yawker has ever been south of the Mason Dixon line. It's easier to be "right" if you ignore the horrors of war and go with a clear paladin vs. death knight scenario. We Americans truly are great at that mental game.

I can't believe that there are only a few of us here can understand nuance. You all have lost the right to tell me that. For me, I'm pretty adament on "Wrong is wrong" but when everyone agrees something its wrong, its acceptable to use the appropriate nuance. Where I generally refuse to use nuance is when people don't realize there is a problem at all...

 

[Cutlass]

Umm, no, that wasn't all that it was about. There were far, far more reasons to secede than that. And the large font is to point out what you want to block out. Just trying to help you notice them a bit more before you make more ignorant remarks.

Are we back to pretending there was anything behind secession other than slavery?

 

[NickyJ]

Are we back to pretending there was anything behind secession other than slavery?

I prefer to call it "noticing the obviousness of it". It's a more accurate description.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Are we back to pretending there was anything behind secession other than slavery?

Wait, are we still pretending Lincoln was a liberator of the slaves?

False. Lincoln was simply invading an independent country, refusing to give its people their own right to self-determination, but had little interest in letting the silent voices vote.

We all know that both sides were morally crap, but yet you feel the need to idolize your side.

The Civil War was about economics. Period.

 

[madviking]

Yep, slavery was an economic system.

 

[Verarde]

Yep, slavery was an economic system.

False. In Civ4, the Slavery civic is classified under Labor. Fact.

 

[caketastydelish]

After reading the OP I can not tell if Mistercooper is

1. A liberal posting something sarcastic in a poor attempt to be funny

2. A troll

3. Simply being serious and geniune.

 

[GhostWriter16]

What if he's a conservative posting something sarcastic?

 

[Verarde]

..then you may want to reconsider. Because despite your intentions, the confederate flag is universally seen as a symbol of the south's desire to cling to the slavery economy. Perhaps that's unfair, but that's the way it is.

Have you personally interviewed everyone in the universe about this, and documented the results? Otherwise, you can't generalize like that.

Wow, do you ever need a new definition for universal.

Yup.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Umm, no, that wasn't all that it was about. There were far, far more reasons to secede than that. And the large font is to point out what you want to block out. Just trying to help you notice them a bit more before you make more ignorant remarks.

Ignorant? That's what you say when you can't defend your logic or lack thereof. It's also what you say when you take a comment out of context and refuse to acknowledge such context when it's presented to you, over and over again.

More reasons to secede than slavery?
Lol wut?

More big colorful fonts please. They make your point clearer.

@GW16 I'll respond to you in the morning, you aren't worth the effort other than to say that Lincoln died before he had a chance to emancipate the slaves he hadn't already freed. Read a history book.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The Civil War was about economics. Period.

The abolition of slavery was a huge economic blow to the South. Perhaps someday those who still try to fight the Civil War even today will eventually get over it.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Lincoln clearly stated he would be willing to let slavery stand in order to "Keep the Union together." That the best way to keep the union together (More nationalism) ultimately led to freeing the slaves does not make Lincoln noble.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I really don't think this absurd vilification of Lincoln which has become so popular with some is going to change the basic facts. Slavery did end in the US thanks in no small part to Lincoln and the legitimate sovereign government.

 

[sophie]

Lincoln clearly stated he would be willing to let slavery stand in order to "Keep the Union together." That the best way to keep the union together (More nationalism) ultimately led to freeing the slaves does not make Lincoln noble.

Just because Lincoln didn't want to abolish slavery doesn't mean that the South didn't secede because of slavery.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Plz delete.

 

[caketastydelish]

My question is what Abraham Lincoln or the American civil war has to do with this thread?