The fine-tuning argument for God's existence

[Mechanicalsalvation]

You don't think God could understand a little pun like that?

11. Thou shall abide by the rules of RD threads.

 

[Arakhor]

Isn't it a shame that the OP has not been seen again since Plotinus' comments? After all, he started a debate in a theologian's thread and then disappeared as soon as said theologian responded.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I agree, but I also expected it. The combination of his emotional investment and loud-mouth-attitude and of being argumentatively smacked down this hard and extensively requires a good chunk of humility to reappear. Perhaps a very Christian attribute, but not a very Internetz-loud-mouth-attribute.

 

[El_Machinae]

Fine tuning is the evidence in favor of Faith

I'm not sure it's evidence in favor of Faith specifically. But, yeah, it's the way evidence works. Fine-tuning is certainly compatible with the idea that our Universe was intentionally created. Each piece of evidence is actually supportive of a host of different theories. Then we collect different pieces of evidence, and look for different predictions between theories and then look for those distinguishing pieces of evidence.

For example, a person waking up with horrid memories of being abducted by UFOs is actually evidence of UFO abduction. It's also evidence of waking nightmares and sleep paralysis. The waking itself is insufficient evidence to choose between the two theories, and so other pieces of evidence are used over time.

God loves you and wants you to accept Him by your heart as your Father.

Christopher Hitchens was often rude, but he had some pithy lines.
You're factually declaring something here that you cannot know. In fact, there's basically no reason to think this is true. And, very likely, the chain-of-reasoning you used to arrive at this conclusion is incompatible with the Bible's version of events.

Now, I happen to like the Rabbi's suggestion to 'love God', and a great deal of that commandment involves shucking the Bible, learning to ignore the bits that are incompatible with these teachings. In other words, what you get is not Christianity if you keep trying to do this.

Faith alone of course does not make you good or bad, for your deeds need to be the testament of your faith.

Faiths are like hills, when your goal is to ascend to the stars. You can climb nearly any hill and get closer. But, if you pick the wrong hill there are going to be other hills that could've gotten you higher. You can see the higher hills, if you look. Chances are, though, you can't climb the next higher hill without discarding the first hill as insufficient.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Faiths are like hills, when your goal is to ascend to the stars. You can climb nearly any hill and get closer. But, if you pick the wrong hill there are going to be other hills that could've gotten you higher. You can see the higher hills, if you look. Chances are, though, you can't climb the next higher hill without discarding the first hill as insufficient.

Its more likely then during the climb you actually find that what you thought was a pretty hill has turned into very challenging mountain but I think if you keep climbing you are likely to find out that all of these hills/mountains eventually arive at the same place somewhere high above regular human experince. If you decide to switch however you dont have to start all over again as the experience you acquired and assimilated so far will serve to expedite any further journey...

 

[El_Machinae]

Kinda. That would be the nature of enlightenment. I was talking about morality. Each faith has moral teachings that you'd have to violate in order to improve your morality.

 

[Tigranes]

You woke up so early this Saturday morning. ..

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Kinda. That would be the nature of enlightenment. I was talking about morality. Each faith has moral teachings that you'd have to violate in order to improve your morality.

The way I see it you rather go simply beyond morality instead of trying to pefect something which its by its nature very limited and serves only as a temporary aid.

 

[Borachio]

I agree, but I also expected it. The combination of his emotional investment and loud-mouth-attitude and of being argumentatively smacked down this hard and extensively requires a good chunk of humility to reappear. Perhaps a very Christian attribute, but not a very Internetz-loud-mouth-attribute.

I'm disappointed. I quite liked Mr Corny with his shouty rhetoric and his inability to read even my terse posts (I'm probably getting confused - I think we had a little exchange in the Ask a Muslim thread. Edit: nope, 'twas the God Exists thread). I got the impression he's a Muslim, though. (Not that it makes an difference. I'm always struck with how similar these things are.)

 

[warpus]

I've been drugged for the last couple days due to a nasty cold, but the way I see it I walked in here one day and everyone's talking about self-pleasure and the thread's flying off its tracks.

Then we crash, I wipe the dust off my shirt, look around, make a joke, try to steer the conversation back towards God, and a guy comes up to me and says: "If you keep this up, this train might very well derail, WE HAVE RULES FOR A REASON YOU KNOW"

Spoiler :

My personal opinion of the whole discussion though is that it's pretty much been debunked in terms of the scientific knowledge about the universe that we have today. It also seems to have been debunked from a theological point of view. That's a double whammy, it seems.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Take it easy bro. I agree the topic is pretty much exhausted. Lets chill out:

Spoiler :

 

[Lay_Lay]

I do admit that universe fine tuning is By Design.
However, I do not believe the Christian Judeo God is the one. In fact, it's not a god at all.
The Prime Mover of the universe need not be omnipotent nor omniscient.
The fact that He can move the universe is evidence enough of his immense power. We need not assume that he is ALL powerful. That is an unnecessary amount of power.
You lost me when you made The Mover all grandiose. He's not.
We have proof that He can move the universe, but we have no such proof that He is All Knowing and All Powerful. To claim it is absurd.

 

[Plotinus]

It also seems to have been debunked from a theological point of view. That's a double whammy, it seems.

I wouldn't completely agree with that. Saying "You can't prove God's existence because it's about faith", which is the closest thing I see here to a theological objection, isn't a debunking, it's just a (fairly arbitrary) moving of the goalposts. The notion that God is somehow off-limits to reason, and that if his existence were demonstrable it would be some kind of barrier to faith, is a modern one that seems to me to have little going for it. I'd say that if God exists it would be reasonable to expect at least some kind of evidence for his existence. So I think that Unicorny is quite right, if he believes in God, to look for good reasons to do so. It's just that he hasn't presented any here.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Thanks Plotinus. Its pleasure to have you around.

 

[Borachio]

Well. I don't know. The cosmological constant is very strange. But in the end it's just another strange thing in a very strange universe.

I honestly understand none of it. But then I'm a human being, and I don't think we've evolved to fully understand this kind of stuff.

Well... I'm sure I haven't, anyway. I'm the result of hundreds of millenia of evolution to avoid being eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger.

And, up to now, it seems to have been a success.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Captain Nit-picky to the rescue! Think you are right? Think again!
Technically you evolved to only be eaten by sabre-toothed tiger after your offspring is able to avoid being eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger without your help and until their respective offspring is able to avoid being eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger without their help.
And incidentally, by that metric the human success story is about to become way less successful (not to mention your personal failure!). And the reason is probably the same as why we wonder about the universe: Because our brains are way way way too big to just run away from sabre-toothed tigers and pop the old lady (even if some are perfectly able to ignore that).

Back to topic: I really really love to stare at the unfathomable grand questions behind it all which we will never know (why this? why that?), scratch may head and think "wooooow" like I am starring in dumb and dumber 2.

 

[Tigranes]

I'd say that if God exists it would be reasonable to expect at least some kind of evidence for his existence.

Unless you found the evidence in your heart -- no material evidence will be ever sufficient for you. There are PhDs in Physics, theologians and illiterate peasants who believe in God and there are PhDs in Physics, theologians and illiterate peasants who do not believe. Faith in Jesus Christ is about who you are inside, deep in your heart, and not about how much material evidence will you admit to trial and how much will you dismiss for whatever reasons.

Some years ago when I was still a graduate student one of the most famous theologians of our times, president of the Foundation for a Global Ethic Hans Küng visited our university, talked about his new book and took questions from audience. I was moved and impressed by his depth and his humility. I remember his child-like answer to the question if he knows more about God than most of the people. "When I stand before God I am not going to say -- look at all the books I wrote. I will say only what I know -- that I am a poor sinner, have mercy on me".

Faith is the category of the heart, not mind, from the same pool as love, hate, repentance, defiance, pride, jealousy, determination, anger, peace of mind, faithfulness and betrayal. What do you think -- with what words would God introduce His existence if you could meet Him in person? "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel". Repent ye. Isn't it something? One can't believe unless he repents. Search the depth of your heart before you go to search heaven and earth. Unless you push intellectual and spiritual pride aside and realize that you are nothing but a poor sinner and therefore are in need of the Holy God, I am sorry but fine tuning argument won't make you a new person.

 

[Borachio]

Hmm.

I'm not sure that one can't believe without repentance. Don't the fiends, and Satan in hell himself, believe too? Didn't I read that somewhere?

(And I'm not sure that repentance means that one believes either. I've made a great many mistakes in my life which I've truly regretted; in as much that I really think it might be a good idea if I began my life again from the beginning. If such a thing were possible.)

But, then, I've a lot of trouble understanding what it means to believe something. I've asked self-confessed believers numerous times what it means, but they've never been very forthcoming about the matter; to the extent that I'm beginning to think that they've probably never really thought about it much. And maybe my question is pretty meaningless anyway. At least, to the people I ask.

 

[Plotinus]

Unless you found the evidence in your heart -- no material evidence will be ever sufficient for you. There are PhDs in Physics, theologians and illiterate peasants who believe in God and there are PhDs in Physics, theologians and illiterate peasants who do not believe. Faith in Jesus Christ is about who you are inside, deep in your heart, and not about how much material evidence will you admit to trial and how much will you dismiss for whatever reasons.

Some years ago when I was still a graduate student one of the most famous theologians of our times, president of the Foundation for a Global Ethic Hans Küng visited our university, talked about his new book and took questions from audience. I was moved and impressed by his depth and his humility. I remember his child-like answer to the question if he knows more about God than most of the people. "When I stand before God I am not going to say -- look at all the books I wrote. I will say only what I know -- that I am a poor sinner, have mercy on me".

Faith is the category of the heart, not mind, from the same pool as love, hate, repentance, defiance, pride, jealousy, determination, anger, peace of mind, faithfulness and betrayal. What do you think -- with what words would God introduce His existence if you could meet Him in person? "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel". Repent ye. Isn't it something? One can't believe unless he repents. Search the depth of your heart before you go to search heaven and earth. Unless you push intellectual and spiritual pride aside and realize that you are nothing but a poor sinner and therefore are in need of a Holy God, I am sorry but fine tuning argument won't make you a new person.

This all sounds very fine, but what does it actually mean? You speak of "faith in Jesus Christ", but that is not the same thing as the cognitive belief that God exists, which is what this discussion is about. "Faith in Jesus Christ" is not the mere belief that he existed or that he is the son of God, but it is a matter of putting your trust in him. But we're not talking about that - we're talking about simply the notion that God exists.

The Bible talks about "faith", but never in the sense of belief in God. The author to the Hebrews (ch. 11) gives many examples of faith from the Old Testament, but they are never about cognitive belief, but about choices that these characters made and actions that they took. God's existence is never up for question in the Bible. Paul asserts that God's existence is absolutely plain to everyone (Romans 2:19-20), and the Psalmist claims that those who deny it are simply fools (Psalm 14:1). It's James who points out that what distinguishes a good person from the demons is not intellectual belief in God but obedience to him (James 2:19). I think Paul, and all of these authors, would have certainly agreed that intellectual inquiry would reveal the existence of God; this was a commonplace in antiquity, such that those who denied it, such as the Epicureans, were ridiculed (and even they believed in gods - they simply denied providence).

So while the notion that "faith" (however nebulously defined, if at all) is something essential and something which goes beyond mere intellectual assent is certainly a traditional and biblical Christian belief, this doesn't apply to belief in God. The Bible takes that as certain; it presents no arguments for God's existence not because belief in God is a matter of "faith" but because it's a matter of intellectual certainty. For us it isn't, which is why it's reasonable to ask for evidence or other good reasons to believe one way or the other.

 

[Domen]

I'm the result of hundreds of millenia of evolution to avoid being eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger.

During the last 10,000 years we have been evolving for other things ("The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution" by G. Cochran and H. Harpending). Though perhaps if 100,000 years ago people had had internet fora, they could have had similar discussions there too.