The Force should go back to sleep permanently

[Synobun]

Which is clearly not a lazy way to write a character at all.

Makes you wonder just how a guy like that would have ended up as a stormtrooper in the first place. Oh, right, he was recruited as a child and was never even given a name. That explains why the majority of defectors from the Nazis were those raised in the Hitler Youth, since being enmeshed in a totalitarian ideology from the cradle is a great way to produce free-thinking, kind individuals.

I feel like you're trying to make a zinger of a point, but you're falling flat. The whole point of Finn's character is that people DON'T defect from the First Order, largely in part because of how they are recruited (raised from birth without identity). His "fatal flaw" was that no matter what he did, he had an identity. He had opinions. The mission on Jakku was his first where he was directly expected to massacre innocents instead of fighting hostiles. He refused... and then he defected at the first available opportunity.

 

[Mouthwash]

I feel like you're trying to make a zinger of a point, but you're falling flat. The whole point of Finn's character is that people DON'T defect from the First Order, largely in part because of how they are recruited (raised from birth without identity). His "fatal flaw" was that no matter what he did, he had an identity. He had opinions. The mission on Jakku was his first where he was directly expected to massacre innocents instead of fighting hostiles. He refused... and then he defected at the first available opportunity.

I'm not seeing how that is in any way a rebuttal of what I said.

To be clear, I don't think it's very good writing for trained fanatics to suddenly betray their cause after seeing some bloodshed. If anything, bloodshed ought to make them more fanatical. They're killing people they've been taught from birth to think of as scum.

 

[Lexicus]

Which is clearly not a lazy way to write a character at all.

I'm confused, what Star Wars film ever had good writing?

Makes you wonder just how a guy like that would have ended up as a stormtrooper in the first place. Oh, right, he was recruited as a child and was never even given a name. That explains why the majority of defectors from the Nazis were those raised in the Hitler Youth, since being enmeshed in a totalitarian ideology from the cradle is a great way to produce free-thinking, kind individuals.

Ever heard of the White Rose?

 

[Kozmos]

The first three had relatively competent writing for what it set out to do. (aka the ones where G.Lucas ideas were kept in check by other more competent people regarding story and direction)

Ever heard of Jannissaries? Stormtroopers are not an intellectual movement composed of students lol.

 

[Mouthwash]

I'm confused, what Star Wars film ever had good writing?

The ones that had good lightsaber fighting.

Ever heard of the White Rose?

I didn't realize the White Rose was part of the Hitler Youth.

 

[Lexicus]

The ones that had good lightsaber fighting.

Well I guess everyone now knows how seriously to take your notions of 'lazy writing.'

I didn't realize the White Rose was part of the Hitler Youth.

Yeah, I can tell. Yet several of its members were in the Hitler Youth, and in the corresponding organization for girls the name of which I forget at the moment.

 

[Synobun]

I'm not seeing how that is in any way a rebuttal of what I said.

To be clear, I don't think it's very good writing for trained fanatics to suddenly betray their cause after seeing some bloodshed. If anything, bloodshed ought to make them more fanatical. They're killing people they've been taught from birth to think of as scum.

Ought to... and does for the vast majority of them. How is it bad writing for there to be an individual that doesn't fit the mold? Do you subscribe to the idea that all humans are identical?

 

[Kozmos]

The way he didn't fit the mold was bad writing, even for a silly space opera. Context is important. Like the third-grade writing explanation for Neo's powers outside the Matrix it was completely out-of-sync with the established tone of the universe. He could have been simply a soldier who couldn't stomach the Empire's methods anymore and been turned (debrainwashed) by a spy handler who was killed at the start of the movie, instead of a goofy space janitor.

 

[Synobun]

The way he didn't fit the mold was bad writing, even for a silly space opera. Context is important. Like the third-grade writing explanation for Neo's powers outside the Matrix it was completely out-of-sync with the established tone of the universe. He could have been simply a soldier who couldn't stomach the Empire's methods anymore and been turned (debrainwashed) by a spy handler who was killed at the start of the movie, instead of a goofy space janitor.

The Empire doesn't exist anymore, and Finn was not a "goofy space janitor". His employment within Starkiller Base had a sanitation specialty.

So you're right, context is very important. I guess you need to know the context before the story makes sense. Weird how nature do dat.

 

[Kozmos]

Okay, sorry. First Order, GE successor but basically GE in all but name. Finn was clearly the goofy character in that movie, inserted primarily for comic relief in the vein of popular representations of black men by stand-up comics and a half-baked romance/bromance. ("Do you have a boyfriend?/Poe Dameron")

 

[Perfection]

On the one hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with formulaic movies per se. I certainly enjoy plenty of them.


On the other, Force Awakens is a rehash of Star Wars to a remarkable degree. Both movies start with an orphan in the desert with untapped potential who has to rescue a robot wandering around. After some local color, both end up in a retched hive of scum and villainy where they each meet a mystic mentor. The men in white suits attack and there’s some flying around before we get to the prison break. Then they blow up a round space station.


Force Awakens isn’t just formulaic, but nearly a remake. This is the fourth time we’ve seen the same damn plot in the same damn sequence right down to the big round space station.

I'm not too fazed by these parallels - you can draw those similarities but the details are quite different. And there's a sneaky emotional genius to the parallels it allows those characters to experience the Star Wars universe as we know it and come to their own sense of it. It sort of puts them into the fantasy of "what if I was in Star Wars?" If the parallels weren't as strong then the trick wouldn't work. By keeping some familiarity of plot the character development and audience bond to the characters has improved.

It's also important to note that Snoke's calm toward the destruction of Starkiller Base is a clue that this might be part of a much deeper plot.

At the end of the day Star Wars were never good movies, just mindless fun. People make a big deal out of it because it's in space and has a mystical component, but they're essentially movies for kids. Imagine a Star Wars book, with those dialogues, those clichés, those thoroughly one-dimensional characters... it would be a complete disaster. But seeing stuff exploding in space makes up for it.

TFA is more of the same.

Star Wars is very good "mindless fun" and exceptionally well put together towards that aim. And I think TFA was quite fun as well. Though I will note that "mindless" is probably not the right term for it - it's more not a movie that needs in-depth and subtle analysis to appreciate and I think that's okay.

I have always hated JJ Abrams in how he has managed to take classics and reboot them into something basically just "passable" as entertainment but nothing memorable at all:
Star Trek, Super 8/Wannabe ET, and now Star Wars. Sigh - here's hoping the next Star Wars doesn't have his fingerprints too heavily on it

I'm not to fazed by JJ screwing up Star Trek. Star Trek movies have always been hit and miss. As a franchise it's much better suited for TV. And of course, recasting the entire crew of Star Trek from their iconic actors just makes it feel a bit off. Chris Pine cannot be Captain Kirk in the way Shatner will always be.

Which is clearly not a lazy way to write a character at all.

Laziness is just another word for efficient - Trust me, I'm an engineer.

Makes you wonder just how a guy like that would have ended up as a stormtrooper in the first place. Oh, right, he was recruited as a child and was never even given a name. That explains why the majority of defectors from the Nazis were those raised in the Hitler Youth, since being enmeshed in a totalitarian ideology from the cradle is a great way to produce free-thinking, kind individuals.

It's a little bit emotionally cartoonish, but that's the point. We want to believe in people like that and we want to believe that we can be people like that. Star Wars provides a fantasy world where these emotions reactions can be more readily believed. That's part of why Star Wars is so great.

Okay, sorry. First Order, GE successor but basically GE in all but name. Finn was clearly the goofy character in that movie, inserted primarily for comic relief in the vein of popular representations of black men by stand-up comics and a half-baked romance/bromance. ("Do you have a boyfriend?/Poe Dameron")

I don't see Finn as a black archetype - nor someone solely for comic relief. Frankly, I find him to me the character I relate to and identify most with.

 

[Kozmos]

That's what he was designed for, to be maximally relatable to the vast majority of the audience. A quirky guy who occasionally does stupid things like drink from watering holes of pack animals, dislikes ethnic cleansing and is a bit of a screw up in life. Whether he feels like a black archetype is debatable I guess, but from his demeanor and acting I kept expecting him to start spewing ebonics at any moment and yelling DAAAMN GURRLL. I'd cast an actual comic at that point, go full speed and make the movie really funny instead of hanging at this awkward mid-point.

 

[Perfection]

If he yells "DAAAMN GURRLL" in the next film I'll concede the point.

 

[Mouthwash]

Well I guess everyone now knows how seriously to take your notions of 'lazy writing.'

I hope you realize I'm not referring to the prequels when I say the films with good lightsaber dueling.

Yeah, I can tell. Yet several of its members were in the Hitler Youth, and in the corresponding organization for girls the name of which I forget at the moment.

Really? I imagine they must have had encounters with others outside their Nazi circle. Perhaps they were exposed to intellectuals. Neither of these could have happened to Finn, however.

Okay, sorry. First Order, GE successor but basically GE in all but name. Finn was clearly the goofy character in that movie, inserted primarily for comic relief in the vein of popular representations of black men by stand-up comics and a half-baked romance/bromance. ("Do you have a boyfriend?/Poe Dameron")

Finn is an utterly pointless character. You could easily remove him from the film without anything being lost. Chekhov's gun, and all that.

Think about how much more exciting it would have been had Rey been alone on Starkiller Base.

 

[Synobun]

Finn is an utterly pointless character. You could easily remove him from the film without anything being lost. Chekhov's gun, and all that.

Think about how much more exciting it would have been had Rey been alone on Starkiller Base.

Did we watch the same movie? If you remove Finn, the credits would have rolled after like 15 minutes. He is fairly integral to every major sequence that takes place in TFA, be it Rey's escape from the First Order on Jakku, how the deal goes down with Maz, or the Resistance's attack on Starkiller.

 

[Mouthwash]

Did we watch the same movie? If you remove Finn, the credits would have rolled after like 15 minutes.

He could have been replaced by more interesting elements, or by fleshing out what was actually happening in the movie.

He is fairly integral to every major sequence that takes place in TFA, be it Rey's escape from the First Order on Jakku,

Why should he have been? It would have been some excellent capable character-building had Rey escaped on her own (far more so than "I'm good at ambushes and fixing stuff").

how the deal goes down with Maz,

No, he isn't.

or the Resistance's attack on Starkiller.

Have Han and Chewie do it by themselves. It means more focus on characters that we already know,

Spoiler :

especially considering what happens to Han.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that this movie could have been substantially improved by removing him. Sci-fi apparently needs affirmative action now.

 

[Synobun]

Sci-fi apparently needs affirmative action now.

I was very interested in responding up until this final sentence. Get that racist rhetoric out of here, dude.

 

[luiz]

It has nothing to do with affirmative action and everything to do with the already mentioned fact that this movie was designed by committees and focus-group tested to maximize appeal and merchandise sales. Disney turned the film into a profit-maximizing algorithm, and they probably found that having a female lead and a black side-kick are part of the solution to maximize profit. Nothing there was left to chance or to lesser considerations such as "author's vision".

 

[Mouthwash]

I was very interested in responding up until this final sentence. Get that racist rhetoric out of here, dude.

After reading Kathleen Kennedy's crazy rant about how ASoIaF is racist for not having a black main character (not exaggerating) it seemed like a plausible explanation.

EDIT: I checked again just now and it was actually written by a different Kathleen Kennedy. I withdraw the theory and apologize.

 

[warpus]

from his demeanor and acting I kept expecting him to start spewing ebonics at any moment and yelling DAAAMN GURRLL.

What, just because he's black? What is this, the 1960s or a galaxy far far away?