aelf
Ashen One
I had my complaints about The Force Awakens, but I find it interesting that most of those who are very critical of the film here have certain things in common.
The Force should go back to sleep permanently
- Thread starter Bkeela
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Kozmos
Jew Detective
SW is no stranger to bad Earth-based stereotyping. At least make them funny then. It's the vibe I got from him and how his character is written. Finn's actor is no Idris Elba.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
That's weird, man. "That guy has black skin so I expect him to act in a certain stereotypical way". That's kind of offensive, don't you think?
I got no such vibes from the character. He was just a guy. Could have been asian, alien, white, or purple. No idea where you're getting any of this from.
Kozmos
Jew Detective
Yeah, no I don't think that's offensive, black actors range from Eddie Murphy and Terry Crews to Idris Elba/Dennis Haybert. I get from him the feeling of stereotypical 'black' humour. Maybe I watched too many black produced movies and stand-up comedians. I simply think a more serious black actor would have been a better fit, story and acting wise.
Put down the Tyler Perry DVD Kozmos.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Maybe stop trying to slap race on everything and just sit back and enjoy the movie
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
I quite like having race in Star Wars. The race scene in Phantom Menace might have been the best part of the movie, and the bike races in Return of the Jedi were a refreshing and thrilling novelty for a film that was otherwise a rehash of the first one.
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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I'm still struggling to see how it was a rehash of the first one, other than "there was a space battle and they blew up a Death Star at the end". There aren't really very many other similarities.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
All three movies start in the desert with a guy following a robot. They get to a wretched hive of scum and villainy to team up with allies. There’s a prison escape. There’s a heroic sacrifice by a father figure. All three feature a raid on a Death Star space station.
Heck, in both Star Wars and Return of the Jedi Luke gets thrown down a garbage pit to fight a giant monster.
Heck, in both Star Wars and Return of the Jedi Luke gets thrown down a garbage pit to fight a giant monster.
Lexicus
Deity
I didn't think you meant the prequels, my point is more that you apparently think good lightsaber sequences somehow has to do with good writing.
The simple fact is that all the Star Wars films, including my beloved original trilogy, are terribly written.
The magic of the first 3 is how they hold your attention in spite of it.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
IMO A New Hope hooked so many people was because it was an almost step by step & step for step exploration of "The Hero's Journey" monomyth. That's a tried and tested thing that can work very well if you do it right.
It didn't try anything relatively groundbreaking from a story telling perspective, it just stuck to a very classic and tried and true script type, used charismatic & relatable characters and actors, an interesting to the audience of the time setting, used in part groundbreaking and at the time relatively visually stunning cinematography, and really good and well thought out scene appropriate and character-specific music.
It's not an incredibly deep plot, but it doesn't try to be. It's just a straight up simple "making of a hero" story. I mean, the Hero's Journey thing is a fairly simple concept.
Spoiler :
It didn't try anything relatively groundbreaking from a story telling perspective, it just stuck to a very classic and tried and true script type, used charismatic & relatable characters and actors, an interesting to the audience of the time setting, used in part groundbreaking and at the time relatively visually stunning cinematography, and really good and well thought out scene appropriate and character-specific music.
It's not an incredibly deep plot, but it doesn't try to be. It's just a straight up simple "making of a hero" story. I mean, the Hero's Journey thing is a fairly simple concept.
IMO A New Hope hooked so many people was because it was an almost step by step & step for step exploration of "The Hero's Journey" monomyth. That's a tried and tested thing that can work very well if you do it right.
Spoiler :
It didn't try anything relatively groundbreaking from a story telling perspective, it just stuck to a very classic and tried and true script type, used charismatic & relatable characters and actors, an interesting to the audience of the time setting, used in part groundbreaking and at the time relatively visually stunning cinematography, and really good and well thought out scene appropriate and character-specific music.
It's not an incredibly deep plot, but it doesn't try to be. It's just a straight up simple "making of a hero" story. I mean, the Hero's Journey thing is a fairly simple concept.
And now people are all like "WOW STAR WARS IS THE MOST MEANINGFUL THING TO ME".
Synobun
Deity
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I am bewildered that there's a genuine argument being made that a character being black is considered bad because he "doesn't act black enough" or because he "only acts a little black". Finn is a character in SW that stands on his own regardless of race or gender. Stop putting it up to a mirror of your own convictions over race caricatures and your life will probably be more fulfilling. The whole notion that he has to abide by some weird regulations on how to act because he's black is also very weird. Stop that.
You mean to tell me that people can place their own importance on media they consume? That they can think something is meaningful when it wasn't originally portrayed as such? That's crazy! When could people do that?
Sarcasm aside, a person's own interpretation of a story is the whole point behind performance art and storytelling. In the words of our Lord and Savior Dave Grohl: “That’s one of the great things about music. You can sing a song to 85,000 people and they’ll sing it back for 85,000 different reasons.”
You mean to tell me that people can place their own importance on media they consume? That they can think something is meaningful when it wasn't originally portrayed as such? That's crazy! When could people do that?
Sarcasm aside, a person's own interpretation of a story is the whole point behind performance art and storytelling. In the words of our Lord and Savior Dave Grohl: “That’s one of the great things about music. You can sing a song to 85,000 people and they’ll sing it back for 85,000 different reasons.”
When did I say that? I meant that the films with good lightsaber fighting (i.e. the originals) were the ones with good writing. It's a coincidence that they happened to be the same.
I honestly don't know how to respond to this. Just... really?
IMO A New Hope hooked so many people was because it was an almost step by step & step for step exploration of "The Hero's Journey" monomyth. That's a tried and tested thing that can work very well if you do it right.
Spoiler :
It didn't try anything relatively groundbreaking from a story telling perspective, it just stuck to a very classic and tried and true script type, used charismatic & relatable characters and actors, an interesting to the audience of the time setting, used in part groundbreaking and at the time relatively visually stunning cinematography, and really good and well thought out scene appropriate and character-specific music.
It's not an incredibly deep plot, but it doesn't try to be. It's just a straight up simple "making of a hero" story. I mean, the Hero's Journey thing is a fairly simple concept.
Oh god. Well, it was only a matter of time before someone brought that nonsense up.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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I have no problems with John Boyega. He was excellent in Attack the Block and showed he could play a hero quite well.
My biggest problem with The Force Awakens beyond the uninspired plot and an underwhelming space battle* (seriously, only X-Wings? Lucas was able to do better than that in a converted garage with motion control) is the entire First Order. Ignoring the fact they are jumped up neo-nazis with none of the cold, disinterested, ruthlessness of Grand Moff Tarkin their entire existence seems to rest on the need for there to be an evil Sith group. Their leadership seems to consist of an emo Anakin clone and some psychotic, unhinged blond tyrant. Fearsome? Not really.
Somehow, they were able to build a planet-sized DOOM MACHINE under the Republic's nose** and manage to destroy the entire Republic fleet in one blast. During WWII Polish and Norwegian ships were able to fight for the governments in exile, but no Republic ships were able to escape and seek revenge on the DOOM MACHINE? Admiral Ackbar wasn't around to unleash his tactical genius?
*I did love the X-Wings to the rescue on the planet, coming in low over the lake. That was a brilliant scene.
**I don't care how politically dysfunctional the Republic was. When you learn somebody is building a planet sized DOOM MACHINE that consumes suns, you nuke it from orbit, just to be sure.
???
In the making off documentary for Star Wars Lucas talks about how he was influenced by Joseph Cambell and the heroes journey and intentionally sought to bring that tone and structure into Star Wars. Given The Force Awakens basically copies the entirety of Star Wars, it, by extension, fits into the Heroes Journey.
I'm objecting to warpus's assertion that its success was a result of being the monomyth.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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Why though? One of the big attractions to Star Wars and why it is still loved 40 years after it was made is that the story is a timeless one. If it was good enough for Gilgamesh and is still keeping us entertained several thousand years later, I'd say it is as good as any reason for the success of Star Wars. The implementation of the plot is fairly underwhelming space opera filler -and holds up badly even to space opera filler published 20 years before Star Wars (Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry). The acting is nothing to write home about. The special effects - hardly the first thing on someone's mind when watching it- still hold up pretty well even if the live-action integration has a lot of issues with the opticals and compositing. What else is there to explain the enduring attraction of the film? Costume Design?
While there is a lot of truth in what you say, Star Wars man. At least they aren't the Avatar fanatics who are physically compelled to tears by the fact they can't live in Avatar.
Lexicus
Deity
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