The Gender Mod

AnarhCassius said:
So I've been playing with the Gender civic in my mod and here is what I have right now
Click to expand...

Anarh

I liked the changes you made on the Gender Civic topic. Yours seem much more reasonable than the original one presented on the topic (do we have any exemple of sexual freedom anywhere in the world? Monogamy is still the official 'way' in most of the civilized world).

If theres one example of society lacking, i guess it would be in those where reproduction is sacred, sex is a ritual, etc. Ive done a school work in this subject once, so i know a few things. The (cant remember the name, it was some small central american nation, im too bored to look right now) where monogamic, but had sexual equality (theres info about their women asking for divorces, for exemple). The main difference is that for them sex was sacred; there would be public fertility rituals (sweet sex with people looking :) ), and for some women it was a job to have kids; the priestess of some goddes would be having sex 12 hours per day! (with many different men, off course) in order to bear the children of their people; it was a very prestigious profession back them!

Other civilizations, like (AFAIK) the summerians, assyrians, and some tribes in south america, they all had mating rituals, with several acts and charms to assure strong kids, and most of them were not necesarely a matriarchaly (sp?).

Ill use the changes AnarchCassius made in this mod (and since im so bad at modding, could you send me your modified files, please???), and then ill look into adding this new Gender civic option wich seem to be lacking IMO.

And; what do you think would be a good bonus for this Civic? My idea would be a xp bonus, since 'strong' kids will be expected to act stronger and will have a better education; maybe +1 food and -1/-2coin from towns, to simulate some increase in population (due to all this public fornication) and decrease in research (due to many beliefs who can prejudice research); and a medium or high cost, since all those acts will be held at the expanse of your gold.

Please Anarch send me your modded files :)
 
Of course, no country has total sexual freedom - so the concept is relative. However - abortion, contraceptives, child daycare and acceptance of homosexuality have together have a tremendous economic and social impact on all countries where government has allowed them. The game should represent this with a civic.

Brancaleone's idea, which could be called "Fertility Cult", seems very interesting. There shouldn't be a link to Towns, since the civic would be most useful for undeveloped civilizations.
 
The thing about a patriarcy is that it evolved from a hunter gatherer socity, insted of having your pregnat or milk berring woman ( few men - or woman for that matter where monogomas in the stone age ) go out and hunt; the male would put himself, and only him self in danger as opposed to the female taking the child and hunting. and the female would gather around there "home" ( most civ's where nomatic untill around the 4,000's bc when argroculter started to develip- ( or perhaps the later was first ))

but over the years we evolved, and the men didnt take control of the world so much as that the woman never realy tried, it was more of a social control that was placed, men did there job, and woman did theres. it was just that men had alot more options i guess? the men would have the option of being a smith or, nothing realy, but the woman could merry around her social class or up if lucky.
 
Are we REALLY trying to overthink this or what? Trying to figure out why men hunted and women gathered food/child reared? Come on people, engage common sense here, try sending the women to hunt and have the men nurse the infants... Jeez...

The mod is interesting to be sure. Suffrage should lead to Equal Rights, which should be the last civic. Equal Rights producing +100% great people is enough of a bonus, and fits well with the concept of equal participation of women in society doubling the chances of a great person.

Polygamy needs more than just +20% food. Polygamous societies end up with a great many unmarried men - do the math. Perhaps that is where you would want food to build military units, as the unwed men have idle hands...

Spare us with matriarchy - it's so obtuse and rare that it's the exception that proves the rule. The reason it never took off is simple genetic - men are physically stronger, and for 99% of human history, physical strength was a large determinant in who was in charge. Perhaps a way to include women in the ruling class should be considered as substitute - women have ruled in history. But lets be clear - Elizabeth the First did not rule a matriarchy...

Venger
 
Polygamy needs more than just +20% food. Polygamous societies end up with a great many unmarried men - do the math. Perhaps that is where you would want food to build military units, as the unwed men have idle hands...
Click to expand...

On the contrary. In many polygynous societies, such as the so-calles Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints (not to be confused with normal LDS), women (or girls) marry much earlier than men. Since polygynous societies tend to grow quickly, there may very well be more than twice as many 14-year old girls as there are 35-year old men. The younger men spend their time getting educated and acquiring the resources to support a large family, and so can't exactly be considered "idle".
 
Patriarchy - Default Civic - Low Upkeep
No effects

The Default, nuff said.

Matriarchy - Hunting - Low Cost
+ 2 Health
+ (2?)4 exp for archer units

Matriarchal societies, such as the minoans and the early japanese and the Amazonesses were often the societal hunters as well as authority figures, japanese clans took the wife's family names and such. But these societies very often kept a very tidy home, therefore I feel that the the health bonus is justified. The hunting and exp are a bit of a strech admitably and focus more of the "amazons" then anything else.

Polygamy - Monotheism - High Cost
+20% food
+1 unhappiness in every city
-10% science
-25% military upkeep

A pretty weighty civic, my justifications are as follows:
Monotheism is a bit of a stretch as well, but seems to fit in best in the tech tree, tho i did consider bronzeworking or ironworking, but that didn't seem in place either, as jewish society was often polygamous, and monotheism gives judaism... i figured why not.

the food production has been debated back and forth and i think it makes sense... here's my rationale, polygamous societies work because the men are often at war and therefore the women outpopulate them. men take multiple wives as a result, these are mostly the rich men tho. the poor as a result get pissy (+1 unhappiness) but there's less concern with all the men marching off to war, since wives don't like it when thier husbands go fight and get killed, if they're married to a man with 12 wives however the husband's rich and therefore less likely to go... i think the military upkeep then is justified.

the unhappiness is a no brainer, if the peasants don't get 12 wives much less 1 pretty often then what's the big deal

The Science, is partly in there for balance, but partly that a society like that breeds frivolity to some degree which hampers scientific progress.

Women's Rights - Liberalism - Medium Cost
+50% Great People rate
Penalty for Civs without Women's Rights
+2 Happiness with Hospital

The great people is because society will stop ignoring the women that may be important members of society but are swept under the rug due to thier gender.

The hospital happiness bonus is for women's health issues, modern gynecology, contraceptives, and medical treatment.

Limited Birth Policy - Nationalism(Communism?) - Medium Cost
Unlimited Engineer and Scientist.
Produce Military Units with food.

Similar to what war previously preposed this will allow for only so many children in a city based on the nations policy (this policy may fluxuate over times and this is reflected in the military boost in production.)

The Engineer and Scientist have to do with the caste system that is often assocaited with said national limitations.

Just my opinions, feedback appreciated thank you.
 
AnarhCassius- that looks perfect, the best ideas thus far bgy a long shot. The only thing I'd question is the Equal rights civic, it seems a tad overpowered, esspecially compared to Birth Control. I think losing the great people bonus, and replacing it with soemthing relivant to Towns would be a good idea- SEs are fading by this point, and CEs are coming into the fray.

Also, men deviate from the mean a lot more than women. While this means that most criminals are men, so too are most of the high-flyers. For this reason I'm sceptical about the GP bonus, I think a small commerce increase would be better.

The other issue is with the Polygyny civic- the bonus to cottage growth already is from a 'liberating' civic, emancipication, not a word often used to describe Polygyny. While I'm sure soem sort of bonus would be apropreot, the rise of the urban beorgeous isn't soemthing I'd put down to gender-inequality.

Firoso- "the unhappiness is a no brainer, if the peasants don't get 12 wives much less 1 pretty often then what's the big deal"

In polygynic societies, there were far more women than men. Indeed, this was normally the cause of the extremes of multi-wifing, like at the dawn of Islam (it allows many wives because many widows at the time had no-one to look after them). AS such, iot was the women who were at risk of being alone, not the much more indemand men.
 
I like this basic idea, and am adopting it for a mod of my own, with SERIOUS revisions. First, I would like to point out that (with the exception of the Labor tree, where the second civic is slavery) all of the civics trees begin with a characteristic of primitive, barbaric society, followed by a more advanced civic intended to impose order on chaos (Hereitary Rule clearly defines succession, Vassalage formalizes rule by the strong in a way intended to protect the weak, Mercantilism clearly defines acceptable commercial practices, and Organized Religion defines commonly-accepted religious practices.
From here, each civic tree can evolve in either of two directions; an authoritarian elite may seek to establish ever-greater control (Police State, Nationhood, State Property, Theocracy), or a benevolent and/or weak elite may establish more tolerant, open, and limited structures (Representation, Bureaucracy, Free Market, Pacifism) that can go on to become still-more enlightened systems.
What does this mean for gender issues in Civilization? For starters, Patriarchy is not primitive enough, in my opinion, to be an initial civic. Unlike the other initial civics, it defines a rigid power structure. So what is the chaos that this order ameliorates? In the human species, where the average male is nearly twice as strong (physically) as the average female, the answer is obvious: in the primitive state, man may do what he will with the woman. Patriarchy evolved so that the dominant man would protect the subordinate woman. (I will note here that, as mentioned earlier in this thread, this is also the place where matriarchy would occur on the civics tree, with the woman, rather than the man, defining the terms of her protection.)
Once civilization, defined by the rule of order over the chaos of the natural state, took a firm hold, male protection was no longer necessary for the female. In those cultures where men had come to view women as property during the preceding period, the brutal yoke of polygamy fell on woman's neck. However, where men continued to view themselves as protectors of the rights of their wives, sisters, and daughters, they began to loosen their hold. While maintaining a certain degree of control over the family, these men began to defer to their womenfolk in certain areas. This structure, which, for our purposes, we will call the "Nuclear Family," characterizes the majority of Western households today.
From here, many women seek further rights, aiming for full equality. Western society appears to be in transition from the Nuclear Family to "Free Sexuality," whose name I will keep.
*Primitivism (Name tentative) - Low upkeep
*Patriarchy - High Upkeep - spend food to produce units (Appropriate for a gender-based civic based on protection)
*Polygamy - Medium upkeep - Cities retain 25% of food after growth (stacks with granary) (this seemed more appropriate than a production bonus from an unproductive way of life)
*Nuclear Family - Low upkeep - +50% great people (Here, women still face barriers to success, but those who make it through the glass ceiling SMASH through)
*Free Sexuality - Low upkeep - +15% science, +15% gold in all cities (When contraception is readily available, those most likely to succeed spectacularly are least likely to be born. However, the economic benefits of a fully-employed workforce are immense. Precise percentage gains are subject to revision in playtesting; these are an estimate.)
 
I was looking at Aussie Lurker's Ultimate Civics Expander, in particular the Ideology element, which appears to be problematic. Might it be possible to create, from the ground up, a "Culture" system, relating to civics in a similar way to how Corporations relate to religions, to include Gender, Ideology, and other social issues?
 
Realisticly evey civic EXCEPT Polygamy should spend food on military units, the production of units would cost people and stiffle growth.

It should be noted that there is a big difference in Polygyny allowed like Judisim and Polygyny mandated like Mormons. In the (rare) case that the genders are nealrly balanced one can have a polygamy where most men only have one wife, haveing a second is merely a circumstantial option.

For gameplay though Polygamy should be the war advantage civic, you can wage war without sending women into harlotry thus preserving families and family lines. A - to WW and bonus to unit production would be good, and a low overall upkeep. I'd say if you're thinking Polygyny is somehow more oppressive than Monogamy you have a good shine on monogamy and you're only looking at the modren Mormon and Islamic polygamists. I would be willing ot maintain Monogamy only got mainstream becaues of the likes of Tertellian and other 2nd-4th century Christian writers who held those ideals along with the oppinion that people got rowdy at sporting events becasue of demonic possetion. The European Jews didnt give it up till C 1000 AD, and it was specifically said that that was a (now expired) law to prevent the Christians getting jealous and killing them.

To that end mandatory Monogamy should be more of a religious tied civic perhaps benifiting culture (25%, to echo how much influece it had) {GPP if you need something more than that.) but adding a lot of WW (25%). Womens Lib would come around libralism and be the option for someone who goes free speech\free rel. I could go for a small hammer and sci bonus for that, perhaps 5% sci and 10% Hammer to prevent it from being overpowered.

For a teir 2 you should probably go for somethign that IS a directly oppressive poilicy. Women as breeders and emphisis on male homosexuality like Rome at its darkest. What advantage this would have I couldnt think, but it seems like going past Womens Lib goes out of the scope of the game or puts it as a very late game civic, and giving everything a GPP% bonus is very bland gameplay wise.
 
Sorry, text doesent convey tone very well. What I meant was more along the lines of "Hey, you like wolfshanze mod to? He has a good mod!"

Needless to say I play wolfshanze too, and I've been meaning to add a family civics line for a while, so I gutted Optimizers work. Take a look, perhaps you will find it more balaced and flavorfull than the original food mods and GPP spamming.


Tribal Family
No state interferance in Marridge. No changes, low upkeep.

Arranged Marridge
High Upkeep
Currency
+1 Trade Route

Harsh Oppression
High Upkeep
Iron Working
+50%Pop+4 Free units
+1 Drafts Per Turn

Monogyny
Low Upkeep
Theology
+50% Culture
+25% WW
+2 Happy with State Religion

Womans Suffrage
Medium upkeep
Mass Media
+25% Hammers, all cities

The early 3 are availible around the same time depending if you go the military or economic or religious tech path. They all serve a unique purpose and I think they are all balanced fairly well. The last one is late game but has a fairly clear desirablility, unless you really want the culture most civs will go to this once they get the tech for it.

What is represented is substantially different than Optimizers. Tribal Family simply represents no state interference in marridge. Arranged Marridges are very old and common thing, so I felt they needed an in, plus they play differently than other civics (I wanted them to have synergy with caste system, but I couldnt think of how). Harsh oppression could represent several things, but it mainly represents the harsh view of women as inferior breeders like the Roman sentiment of some times. Monogyny makes it on there while Polygamy doesent becasue Monogyny is a much more specific term with much more specific origins. Specifically its a policy of one man to one woman forever, no room for homosexuality or anything extra marital. Its a very religious policy so it's tied to you're state religion. It finishes with Suffrage, which comes late (as it did) and can encompass as much or as little sexual freedom as you imagine, the only thing it does is add to the workforce and add hammers.

I dont really care about being PC but this version is (I belive) less contriversal (even oppression is analgus to Slavery or Police State civics) and more playable. The Civilopida is rudimenteraly done.

And I have integrated it with Wolfshanze mod (He hasnt used any of the XML Files it needs). Only downside is the buttons are redundant with old civics buttons. If anyone likes this and has graphics for the new butons please feel free to add them and post them somewhere I can get them.
 
Tlalynet, I like your name for the beginning civic (yoink!).

Polygyny is certainly practised in societies with family structures that we have broadly grouped under polygamy. A more appropriate name for what we are referring to with the term "Polygamy" would indeed be your choice of "Harsh Oppression." Personally, though, I prefer the resonnance of "Polygamy" to the absolute precision of "Harsh Oppression."

"Arranged Marriage" has a similar problem with the one you point out for "Polygamy," being practiced under a variety of family structures that we have previously called "Patriarchy" and "Polygamy." This time, though, my "resonnance test" goes the other way - "Patriarchy" is simply (IMNSHO) more flavorful.

As for "Monogyny," I like your idea here. It emphasizes that, at this point, one man - one woman marriages are valued (and, by extension, marriage for love, a disconnect from the arranged marriage system under Patriarchy and Polygamy. I would simply change the emphasis by referring to it as "Monogamy." This should have been an obvious move a long time ago, given that Polygamy was already on the list in the op.

As for "Woman's Suffrage," this is a little too politically-oriented, IMNSHO, for a gender civic. Clearly, woman's suffrage doesn't exist in a monarchy, but monarchy has nothing to do with the rights of women relative to men. "Sexual Freedom" is a better choice of name here.

The type of people that hack into game code to improve their experience (us) tend to be overly-analytical. Firaxis's original civics choices often sacrifice precision for flavor ("Police State," in the strictest sense, overlaps broadly with Hereditary Rule, for example), and we should try to immitate them. I am not criticizing you specifically, Tlalynet, I committed the same sin with my "Nuclear Family" name.
 
I've got to credit optimizer himself for the original civic, tribal family, the name was already in the code when I mod modded, and it was one of the few things that survived (The others being the python screen, thank you very much, and the catagory name, which I plan to change next update)

While to a lot of modern westerers polygyny is associated with the worst of the ideas of Islam and Mormons, it is a way of doing things that does not presupposes any oppression. I myself originally married a Bi girl, and felt it was the only gracefull option. The problem lies in the fact that the two modren versions westerners (including europeans) are most familar with are versions where the marring of more wives is directly tied to the religion, especially in the Mormon case where it is some form of mesure of how good someone is. The problem lies in the mandate, which objectifies women just by existing. It can and has been practiced where at times where the genders are almost balanced almost every man has one wife, and when things get imbalanced women can still marry if they want to. This form isn't naturally oppressive, and is fully compatible with equal rights.

I agree that Patriarchy is very flavorfull, but I could'nt make it as usefull from a gameplay prespective. Arranged Marridge is broad, but only in the sense that all the civics in my set are broad (except monogyny), it can be whatever you imagine it to be. I added Womans to the list, in game it just shows up as Suffrage (should add Equal to that in the revision though) so if they player likes they can renamy Monty Amazonia and imagine oppression of men or arranged marriges as such, to be equilized only at that civic. I feel like most civic catagories already in civ are broad like that so the player can imagine thier alternate reality as they wish.

The main problem I had with puting Patriarchy in is I felt it would have to obsolete earlier than I wanted it too, unitll (and a little bit after) suffrage I wanted all options to be vaiable depending on strategy. I guess I just cant picutre patriarcy in 1900. That and it feels more like a Government civic, actually I was considering replacing Despotism with Patriarchy (and changing heireditary rule to all out monarchy) as the most basic form of government.

I agree that Monogamy is a deffinate step, but I won't comment in which way. Anyway, polotics aside, I named it Monogyny (actually could be even more specific) because it's a heavy religious civic, one man one woman no more no changes. The idea of a one to one for life same sex couple didnt arise untill after suffrage, and suffrage is intentionally broad so it can be whatever one wants it to be and encompass that.

I'm curious, did you re-code the tags so you could add to after growth storage for you're polygamy? That's pretty good if you did, I wouldnt mind grabbing that schema in case I want it for something.

England is a Monarchy (and a republic, but still). Anyway, now that you say it I think both Suffrage and Sexual freedom might be too political for what I want, I will rename it equal rights and leave it at that.

Yeah, I set out what I wanted gameplay wise before I started working on what feilds I wanted. I intended to have a polygamy, but it felt too specific and I feel that there would be a natural tennancy allowing it if there was no interferance. Overly anylitical yes, but it's fun to talk about and fun to do. And you're definately right that firaxis sacrifised precition for gameplay, give me one good reason why I cant run a enviromentalistic free market where the state offitially owns the property (Most nations do, USA and Canada at least)

Good talkin.
 
Alright this is a semifinal Relese of my modmod pending comments. Segregation was nerfed so it provides less units than Vassalage, and is pretty much obseleted by nationalism (I wanted it like that) while Arranged Marridges and Monogyny survive untill equal rights. Monogyny is still a cultural boon after free religion, but it makes no one extra happy. Suffrage was renamed Equal rights.

The big change, and the reason that the Original moder and other modders might want to grab this, is that Equal Rights is now a UN Vote Option. The Text Tag is at the end of the gender text file, and it would be a two minute job to rip that code out and rename the tags. You will of course have to mod the text file and the Civ4Voteinfo.xml, just search suffrage, it appears after Free Religion in the vote window.

The Civilopedia is generally cleaned up.

The Big problem, and one I hope someone knows how to circumvent, is that default civics are defined by nation. Tribal Family is technically not selected at the beggining of the game, and a popup telling you to review you're civics options always pops up.

Now, one could include the civilization defines file, but then it would be incompatible with most other mods (any mod with new or different civ's, every mod I play) If anyone knows how to make Tribal Family default within the civicsinfo file I would much appriciate it.

I'm thinking making this modular would be good, I may look into that.

Xenomorph was added to the credits for updating to BTS, and debrooks was added for his suggestions.
 

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