The God Delusion: Would society be better off without religion?

[Truronian]

Truronian
Who are you do decide what God can or can't?

God can't do things that are logically impossible.

 

[Souron]

Dawkins is an evolutionist, and there is a theory that religion was an evolutionary adaptation for an advanced species trying to come to terms with mortality... There's a bit of irony.

Considering that Judaism doesn't obsess or stress mortality much, that hypothesis doesn't sound likely.

 

[Zarn]

God can't do things that are logically impossible.

This is a highly illogical statement.

 

[civ2]

spryllino
"Impossible" in this context is actually rather "never observed" - which doesn't mean it CAN'T happen.
Actually, the biggest miracle was the very CREATION - from OUR viewpoint that is.
When SOMETHING appears from NOTHING - that's what "physically impossible".
But it happened!
There are miracles the BREAK "nature" - and there are (much more often, everyday) miracles that we DON'T see cause they're CLOTHED in "nature".

 

[spryllino]

civ2: Prove it and I'll believe you. As far as I can see, it never happened, or it wouldn't be a miracle.

Zarn, there's a very good discussion of that in the Ask a Theologian thread.

 

[Truronian]

This is a highly illogical statement.

How so?

An entity unconstrained by logic can both exist and not exist, and indeed both does and doesn't.

 

[Haseri]

Mise
Whatever the TERM is - I'm talking about the IDEA.
And NO, archeology is NOT a fact - bones are.

No, Archeology is the study of human remains. Paleontology is the study of pre-human remains, which produces the bones.

And evolution is a theory of how those bones appeared there.

No, evolution is a theory on how the creatures looked like that.

I, for one, say those were pre-FLOOD "mutants".

Sure, you can say it, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[civ2]

spryllino
It's like electricity - you can't touch it or see it, only see the light that it results in.
(Or get shocked. )
What people call "coincidence" or "luck" is exactly an example of such hidden miracles.
The nature is NOT in control - the Creator is.

Truronian
I've discussed this in AtT and I don't want to start it over again.
"If I understood God - I would be Him". Period.

Haseri

The fact that animals evolve is an empirical observation (based on 200 years of archeological records); the theory that animals evolve through natural selection is an explanation of those facts.

I don't care about the name anyways.

 

[spryllino]

civ2: Prove it and I'll believe you. As far as I can see, it never happened, or it wouldn't be a miracle.

 

[Truronian]

Truronian
I've discussed this in AtT and I don't want to start it over again.
"If I understood God - I would be Him". Period.

And yet you claim that he can do the impossible; that he's logically inconsistent. If what you can understand doesn't make sense then what hope do you have for the stuff you don't understand?

 

[civ2]

spryllino
Prove WHAT?

Truronian
God can do the "impossible" that LOOKS like that from OUR perspective - not from His.
Logic is a part of OUR brain functions - not His.
You still compare human logic and God's logic.
Both ARE logics - but just very different.

 

[spryllino]

Prove that anything is a result of a miracle.

 

[civ2]

spryllino
Whatever I'll bring as a prove you can (like typically happens) call it "fairytale".
So unless YOU see it first-hand, I doubt I'd be able to "prove" anything.
Anyways, typical miracles:
Splitting the Red Sea; Ten Plagues; Chanukah story; (hidden miracle) Purim story etc...
Experienced some (much, much) lesser hidden miracles myself too.

 

[Mise]

Mise
Whatever the TERM is - I'm talking about the IDEA.
And NO, archeology is NOT a fact - bones are.
And evolution is a theory of how those bones appeared there.
I, for one, say those were pre-FLOOD "mutants".
(Not the only possible idea btw.)
So my statement is as much of a theory (based on religious knowledge rather than scientific) as is evolution OR age measuring.

As long as you accept that what you're saying about theories and facts is completely wrong.

 

[Souron]

civ2 does not a believe in the scientific method.

Which is case point to why religion and science are so often at odds.

Civ2 is being selective in what he believe of science, even though science does not establish the distinctions that he makes. Science does not have a special class distinction for his "facts" and "theories". Fact is not a scientific term at all.

 

[civ2]

Souron
Who cares HOW you call it?
There are OBJECTIVE things (I called them facts) - gravity, electricity, all other stuff that can be APPLIED.
Then there are UNOBJECTIVE things (I called them theories) - evolution, age of world, all other stuff that can't be observed or directly applied.
I wouldn't (and I'm not) arguing with the first group - but I have full rights to argue with something UNPROVABLE.
You CAN'T prove something by using the PRODUCT - be it the nowadays ecosystem or stars in the sky.
It's just ASSUMPTIONS.
Which leads to BELIEVING in them - or NOT (like in my case).

 

[nonconformist]

Go read an elementary science textbook, then come back and argue.

 

[civ2]

Scientified zombies.
I'm serious, you so much want to BELIEVE in science - it becomes your GOD.
Typical...

 

[Haseri]

What kind of physicist are you anyway, civ2?

 

[nonconformist]

Scientified zombies.
I'm serious, you so much want to BELIEVE in science - it becomes your GOD.
Typical...

Uh....I believe in science because I understand it. You just choose to be ignorant of it.