The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Five: The Revenge of Mike Shermer

What the poop do flood myths have to do with evolution? It doesn't matter whether or not the seas suddenly rose in unison to cover the world some time in the 10,000 years.

But I'm going to jump on the bandwagon anyway and explain a few things.
1. The fact that a few stone age myths share similar characteristics is meaningless. All of them could be exactly the same, and it would not prove anything besides the fact that the societies that generated them fell under similar circumstances or had contact with each other.
2. If there were a worldwide flood, there would be evidence to indicate that it occurred. No such evidence has been found.
 
What the poop do flood myths have to do with evolution? It doesn't matter whether or not the seas suddenly rose in unison to cover the world some time in the 10,000 years.

But I'm going to jump on the bandwagon anyway and explain a few things.
1. The fact that a few stone age myths share similar characteristics is meaningless. All of them could be exactly the same, and it would not prove anything besides the fact that the societies that generated them fell under similar circumstances or had contact with each other.
2. If there were a worldwide flood, there would be evidence to indicate that it occurred. No such evidence has been found.

Civilization arising shortly following an ice age should be an obvious reason why there are so many flood myths.
 
And I think there is some sort of shared psychology that humans evolved that lead to archetypal stories and figures that reflect our psychology rather than historical or scientific truth.

Several cultures share messiah stories, gods, spirits and superstition, but these similarities speak more about the human mind and human perception of our relationship to nature, rather than nature itself.

So I think it's fair to draw conclusions about the human condition from these shared allegories, but not on the laws of the universe or objective history.

EDIT: Are we getting close to a sequel thread?

"The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part SIX: The Slaughter Rule"
 
I believe in a pragmatic combination of creationism and evolution. The only reason why I don't fully believe in evolution is because I don't understand how anything could have formed without a creation. I know, it's against the laws of physics to create matter, but how?
 
Anyway, if 300 scientists, each of which never saw the others, came up with the same exact theory, yes, it would. However, 300 scientists did not come up with the same theory without discussing it, 1 did, Darwin.
Actually, Darwin came up with the concept of Natural Selection, evolution was already widely understood to be a phenomenon by then. Darwin merely created a method for understanding how evolution worked, and even then your claim isn't true, because of men like Alfred Russel Wallace and others.
 
I believe in a pragmatic combination of creationism and evolution. The only reason why I don't fully believe in evolution is because I don't understand how anything could have formed without a creation. I know, it's against the laws of physics to create matter, but how?


Except that the theory of evolution doesn't come close to trying to explain the creation of matter or ambiogensis, just how, over time, a process of genetics mutations and natural selection creates a diversity of biological species on earth.
 
I believe in a pragmatic combination of creationism and evolution. The only reason why I don't fully believe in evolution is because I don't understand how anything could have formed without a creation. I know, it's against the laws of physics to create matter, but how?
As ColdClimate said, the theory of evolution is only concerned with the evolution of life.

How life started is another topic.

And if you have problems seeing how anything could have formed without a creation, then have you ever considered if God could "have formed" without a creation? (But please talk about that in another thread! ;) )
 
I believe in a pragmatic combination of creationism and evolution. The only reason why I don't fully believe in evolution is because I don't understand how anything could have formed without a creation. I know, it's against the laws of physics to create matter, but how?
What do you mean exactly by "Pragmatic?"
 
There is only one thing against evolotion the only thing is religion. There is no contracting evidence so it must be true I'm sorry but this is becoming outdated and useless argueing about proven scientific point is ridiculous. The main arguments now are about the ark story and that can prove nothing and has proved nothing. So please do us all a favor and accept Slaughter Rule and give up.
 
There is only one thing against evolotion the only thing is religion. There is no contracting evidence so it must be true I'm sorry but this is becoming outdated and useless argueing about proven scientific point is ridiculous. The main arguments now are about the ark story and that can prove nothing and has proved nothing. So please do us all a favor and accept Slaughter Rule and give up.
You make it sound like you are obliged to respond here.

If people were to just give up arguing, that would not make them agree with us, and so nothing would be better from it.
 
I believe in a pragmatic combination of creationism and evolution. The only reason why I don't fully believe in evolution is because I don't understand how anything could have formed without a creation. I know, it's against the laws of physics to create matter, but how?
Heh. You've launched a blizzard of responses. Here's my piece, hopefully different from what everyone else is saying.

With regards to matter forming out of nothing: this is a simple observation -- a law. No known process can create something out of nothing. Energy and matter are always conserved, except that either can be converted into the other. By a trivial assumption of science, this law has always been true. (If it weren't true, it would mean we can't use science to deduce the past).

I'd encourage you to abandon the assumption that the world must have had a creation. Yes it sorta comes naturally, and may seem obvious at first, but take my word for it, the universe is not simple or intuitive.

However, modern physics does claim that the world had a beginning. It has been observed that the universe is and has been cooling down and getting less dense (this is confusingly called expansion*). This is basically a law of nature. A fundamental one, since there's no further explanation as to why. This law is true now, and must always have been. BUT: fitting the trend backwards, there must have been a time when it was as hot and as dense as can be**. And before that -- well the trend can't be extended further. So by the simplest explanation, there is no before. Time had a beginning. A "creation" for all matter and energy that exists today.

This image of creation isn't what one might think when one thinks of creating. There wasn't a formless void, and bored Gods, as is common among creation myths. No "vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of night". Instead time itself had a beginning. And after it began, it was hot and dense. And then it cooled and expanded. This is the image science paints. It can be hard to get your head around the idea. But it follows from a very basic assumption: the most fundamental laws of the universe have never changed, and from observation of what those laws are. This assumption should be held on to. Others, like the assumption that there must have been a creation event, are not so fundamental, and can be done without.

*confusingly, because unlike expansion as we normally think of it, the universe was and is not expanding into anything. It was simply getting less dense. It's as if your house got no bigger on the outside, but inside you found an extra closet.
**Not all trends imply a beginning like this, but this one does. It's not linear.
 
I agree with the first link more than the second one
 
What the poop do flood myths have to do with evolution? It doesn't matter whether or not the seas suddenly rose in unison to cover the world some time in the 10,000 years.

But I'm going to jump on the bandwagon anyway and explain a few things.
1. The fact that a few stone age myths share similar characteristics is meaningless. All of them could be exactly the same, and it would not prove anything besides the fact that the societies that generated them fell under similar circumstances or had contact with each other.
2. If there were a worldwide flood, there would be evidence to indicate that it occurred. No such evidence has been found.
I will deal with issue 1 with another section. But we have evidence of things that had to have happened very rapidly otherwise they would not happen. The fact that we even have fossils in the first place is a great indicator, since you need to have rapid burial to stop the dead animal from being eaten by other predators. In fact these two fossils show how remarkable it is, since we have one that is the process of eating it's prey and one of an Ichthyosarus in the process giving birth. Even if the mother died during the birth, the baby would not be where it is.


So these two fossils show rapid fossilisation.
Civilization arising shortly following an ice age should be an obvious reason why there are so many flood myths.
But that does not follow, since there are some areas in the world, such as Australia that was not touched by the Ice Age and yet there are Aborigines flood myths, heck there are even Tower myths that have spread across the world and these cultures were separate for a long time, so there is more to what you are thinking than w=you want to believe.
Actually, Darwin came up with the concept of Natural Selection, evolution was already widely understood to be a phenomenon by then. Darwin merely created a method for understanding how evolution worked, and even then your claim isn't true, because of men like Alfred Russel Wallace and others.
Wrong, it was Edward Blyth that was the first to use it, but he used to in a Creationist perceptive. http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/Number2/Darwin2Html.htm
Except that the theory of evolution doesn't come close to trying to explain the creation of matter or ambiogensis, just how, over time, a process of genetics mutations and natural selection creates a diversity of biological species on earth.

I will call that a cop out, since evolution is not possible with a credible explanation of how the first cell came to being. You need to show that it possible for the first cell to come into existence by itself first. It is vital step. Because all things are done naturally, then there has to be an explanation of how the first cell cam into being.
 
@ Classical Hero

No those two fossils show simultaneous deaths , and possibly a rapid sediment covering event,
there is nothing to suggest miraculous turning of flesh to stone in the photos provided

some of the best fossils in SA are at Hallets Cove a very good place to study Glacial actions following the last ice age
 
I will call that a cop out, since evolution is not possible with a credible explanation of how the first cell came to being. You need to show that it possible for the first cell to come into existence by itself first. It is vital step. Because all things are done naturally, then there has to be an explanation of how the first cell cam into being.
Failure to explain abiogenisis does not make evolution wrong, and the other idea right. That's not science. In science every part of the model of the world has to have evidence supporting. If there is no such evidence, then you don't take an ideas from an ancient book, you just say you don't know. Until you have physical evidence otherwise.

Here's a brief explanation of what we know of abiogenisis though: There is good reason to believe in the process of evolution that led all modern life to be descended from a single proto-life form. And though Miller–Urey experiment we've shown that some environments can create organic building blocks. The Miller–Urey experiment didn't manage to create an environment exactly matching what primordial earth must have been like, but it showed that the idea is sound. With enough building blocks, and a boatload of time (a billion years), eventually the most important part of life starts to occur: self replication. And with that, and another boat load of time, life begins to evolve.
 
I will call that a cop out, since evolution is not possible with a credible explanation of how the first cell came to being. You need to show that it possible for the first cell to come into existence by itself first. It is vital step. Because all things are done naturally, then there has to be an explanation of how the first cell cam into being.

Thanks for posting, I know what a dogpile this is.
I disagree that we need abiogenesis theory to have evolution theory. Now, lacking an abiogenesis theory means that we don't have a proper working theory of Earth, granted, but abiogenesis is not required to explain the current diversity and causes of our ecosystems.


I'm not arguing that we don't need an abiogenesis theory. It's very much needed and will probably be a hot topic for some time. But evolution can stand on its own. Consider, for example, if panspermia is true. If it's true, then no abiogenesis theory will ever be a fact (even if the theories are robust), but the evolutionary explanation would still work for explaining post pan-spermia events. If we find seeded life on Mars, for example, it's going to cause real headscratching about where life actually started.
 
Top Bottom