The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Five: The Revenge of Mike Shermer

[ColdClimate]

Theistic evolution is wrong. There is no doubt in my mind. And I'm about to prove it. However, you can be wrong on this point and still be a Christian.

Odd that you brought it up, then....

Now, to the debunking of evolution:

Death is caused by sin, at first there was no death, therefore, according to theistic evolution, millions of years took place before a death took place.

Didn't you just say that theistic evolution is false...? And what does that prove anyhow?

Also, over 300 legends of 8 people in a boat and a worldwide flood exist, obviously they were based on reality.

8 people and a <poop> load of animals, huh?

And you can find lots of versions of Red Riding Hood in many different cultures. Should we beleive in talking wolves then.

Obviously not. Only people and snakes talk, right?

 

[PeteAtoms]

Theistic evolution is wrong. There is no doubt in my mind. And I'm about to prove it. However, you can be wrong on this point and still be a Christian.

Now, to the debunking of evolution:

Death is caused by sin, at first there was no death, therefore, according to theistic evolution, millions of years took place before a death took place.

Also, over 300 legends of 8 people in a boat and a worldwide flood exist, obviously they were based on reality.

So what if I said there were over 300 scientists that all believe in evolution, that would prove it's correct right? And if it's a legend to boot, how can an archetypal myth be wrong?

Also, if millions of years took place, there is no way Genesis can be right. As it's been pointed out, that is way longer than the time span implicit in Genesis.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So what if I said there were over 300 scientists that all believe in evolution, that would prove it's correct right? And if it's a legend to boot, how can an archetypal myth be wrong?

Also, if thousands of years took place, there is a way Genesis can be right. As it's been pointed out, that is way longer than the time span implicit in Genesis.

Fixed the quote. I am against theistic evolution, just pointed out that you can still be a Christian and believe that.

Anyway, if 300 scientists, each of which never saw the others, came up with the same exact theory, yes, it would. However, 300 scientists did not come up with the same theory without discussing it, 1 did, Darwin.

 

[Senethro]

But given those damn scientists habit of publishing their work and theories for consumption by their colleagues, how are we to keep them ignorant enough so that they all develop the same theory independently?

 

[Ajidica]

Errrr, Domination, if you are going to 'fix' someones quote without making it clear its a jest its helpful to at least change you own, quoted post. Did you or did you not make the post saying the following:

Death is caused by sin, at first there was no death, therefore, according to theistic evolution, millions of years took place before a death took place.

I can't find the exact, post, but you have implied and did not deny ColdClimates assertion that YEC's believe the earth was made ~6000 years ago and asserted that you are a YEC. Basic mathematics states that 1 million is greater than 6000, let alone 'millions' of years.

Domination, you are aware that Augustine believed that life was created in its germinal form and through the will of God changed until it became its current form today? I feel that is a much more acceptable way of saying 'God made us' than saying 'and on the 5/6th animals popped into existance'.
Also, just because the bible says a 'day', does not mean it is our current conception of a day as time has no meaning for God. This point was brought up in the Scopes Monkey Trial.

 

[Perfection]

I meant before the universe existed.

Same sort of story. Time without space doesn't make sense given the understanding of Time that Einstein gave us.

Anyway, here's a thought.

If your brain evolved (The non-personal your) by complete chance, who says it evolved correctly? What if there was a mistake in the evolution of your brain that is making you believe evolution is real.

The brain didn't evolve by "complete chance" natural selection is specifically about how undirected mutation can become directed change, and the direction that that change takes is definitely not complete chance.

Also, over 300 legends of 8 people in a boat and a worldwide flood exist, obviously they were based on reality.

Okay, where's the list of them?

A few things to note:

Ancient peoples clearly exchanged myths and beliefs. You need to show that they aren't based on the same myth.

Floods were a common occurrence in ancient civilizations that sprung up in river valleys.

And of course, since I don't know your list I really can't comment on specifics, but I highly suspect that a lot of the myths are clearly derivative or at least plausibly so and a fair bit more are quite a bit off the biblical story.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Same sort of story. Time without space doesn't make sense given the understanding of Time that Einstein gave us.

The brain didn't evolve by "complete chance" natural selection is specifically about how undirected mutation can become directed change, and the direction that that change takes is definitely not complete chance.


Okay, where's the list of them?

A few things to note:

Ancient peoples clearly exchanged myths and beliefs. You need to show that they aren't based on the same myth.

Floods were a common occurrence in ancient civilizations that sprung up in river valleys.

And of course, since I don't know your list I really can't comment on specifics, but I highly suspect that a lot of the myths are clearly derivative or at least plausibly so and a fair bit more are quite a bit off the biblical story.

Exactly. The biblical story happened. Hence the legends. (I call them legend not myth because the basic idea is true.)

 

[Perfection]

Exactly. The biblical story happened. Hence the legends. (I call them legend not myth because the basic idea is true.)

Exactly?

Look, you claim there's a list, where's the list?

why should we believe that this list exists, and that there are indeed 300 independent stories?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Exactly?

Look, you claim there's a list, where's the list?

why should we believe that this list exists, and that there are indeed 300 independent stories?

Well, I don't have the whole list, but this will do nicely

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

I know what you're going to say, so, well, people like you were prophesied.

http://www.truthablaze.com/ignorant.html

 

[Perfection]

Well, I don't have the whole list, but this will do nicely

No it won't. That's not 300! You said 300. I want the whole list! Why'd you say 300 if you didn't have 300?

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

Okay let's see, The Babylonians, Chaldeans, Indians, and Greeks (and probably Tanzanians) were all in contact long before the Torah was written down. So they all don't count (obviously not independent stories).

Australia is specifally mentioned as not having one. That's out

So now were down to about 5. How many of these are actually verifiable as being not from earlier contact with Christian missionaries? Can you verify them?

So until you can show they aren't I'm not gonna allow them to be worth anything.

That leaves us with China, and I can't find "Hihking" anywhere (the only source seems to be related to your website)

So you have not delivered to me a single good piece of evidence.

That's 300 less than 300

I know what you're going to say, so, well, people like you were prophesied.

http://www.truthablaze.com/ignorant.html

Nope! I'm not doing this for the sinful pleasures. I'm doing this because I think it's right.

 

[Moss]

Perfection, don't you realize that thinking you are right is pride - you are dabbling in the greatest sin of all!

 

[ParkCungHee]

t just allows you to say fancy things like "God does not play dice".

Until you get into the really involved physics.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Death is caused by sin, at first there was no death,

I wonder how long it would take Clostridium perfringens to flood the entirety of the garden of eden if they would never die.

 

[Berzerker]

No it won't. That's not 300! You said 300. I want the whole list! Why'd you say 300 if you didn't have 300?

take note of that request warlady

Australia is specifally mentioned as not having one. That's out

I read 3 stories from Australia at that site, and they sure dont sound like they're based on what some Christian missionary told them. These Flood myths come from various peoples' experience with rising seas following the end of the ice age. Where these myths began in place and time depends on each groups' proximity to those rising seas. The Tlingit of Alaska believe the Great Flood happened ~14,000 years ago. Thats very close to the Antarctic meltwater pulse 1a when sea levels rose ~65ft within a couple centuries (I'd bet it was much faster).

 

[Cheetah]

Well, I don't have the whole list, but this will do nicely

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

I think Perfection went through your list well enough, but I also noticed the funny table to show similarities to the Biblical flood story:

It lists 20 sources for a "Flood Tradition", completely ignoring whether they have any contact with each other, even to the point of including TWO Assyrian-Babylonian traditions!

And then it shows how much these "unique" traditions have in common with the Biblical flood story. Or does it? Taking each "Partial representation of Biblical idea" as a 50% match, we get:

• Destruction by water: 97.5% matches. It's about a FLOOD! Of course there is destruction by water!
• Humans saved: 90% match. Well, if no humans survived the story it wouldn't be a very good story now, would it?
• Ark (Boat) provided: 75% match. Even a boat wasn't always needed...
• Universal destruction: 75% match. I suppose a flood story not emphasising the enormous destruction of the flood isn't a very good story either...

Those four are the best matches. Wanna see how the rest matches up?

• Favored family: 60% match.
• Divine destruction: 45%
• Man in transgression: 40%
• Birds sent out: 30%
• Survivors worship: 30%
• Animals saved: 27.5%
• Landing on mountain: 25%
• Divine favor on saved: 25%

In total: we have a whopping 51.67% similarity between the stories. Clearly the Biblical flood must have been real...

 

[GhostWriter16]

I think Perfection went through your list well enough, but I also noticed the funny table to show similarities to the Biblical flood story:

It lists 20 sources for a "Flood Tradition", completely ignoring whether they have any contact with each other, even to the point of including TWO Assyrian-Babylonian traditions!

And then it shows how much these "unique" traditions have in common with the Biblical flood story. Or does it? Taking each "Partial representation of Biblical idea" as a 50% match, we get:

• Destruction by water: 97.5% matches. It's about a FLOOD! Of course there is destruction by water!
• Humans saved: 90% match. Well, if no humans survived the story it wouldn't be a very good story now, would it?
• Ark (Boat) provided: 75% match. Even a boat wasn't always needed...
• Universal destruction: 75% match. I suppose a flood story not emphasising the enormous destruction of the flood isn't a very good story either...

Those four are the best matches. Wanna see how the rest matches up?

• Favored family: 60% match.
• Divine destruction: 45%
• Man in transgression: 40%
• Birds sent out: 30%
• Survivors worship: 30%
• Animals saved: 27.5%
• Landing on mountain: 25%
• Divine favor on saved: 25%

In total: we have a whopping 51.67% similarity between the stories. Clearly the Biblical flood must have been real...

You proved it for yourself with these stats. For instance, Birds being sent out 30% of the time, 25% landing on mountain, exc...

It's true, stop denying.

 

[Senethro]

Domination, how do you know its other traditions agreeing with you and not you agreeing with other traditions? Why is your version correct and the others wrong or incomplete?

 

[warpus]

Perfection, I think Domination just KO'd your thread

 

[GhostWriter16]

Domination, how do you know its other traditions agreeing with you and not you agreeing with other traditions? Why is your version correct and the others wrong or incomplete?

Because the Bible has been right about everything else, such as prophecy, exc. Saying that, say, Daniel was written after Alexander is insulting and blasphemous.

Perfection, I think Domination just KO'd your thread

Yep

 

[Cynovolans]

What is it with all the flood myths? They are very different from each other, and the myths were made to explain different things. Like Mongolian and Siberian flood myths explained how humans survived the flood and why mammoths didn't. In Central and West African flood myths the flood is usually caused by somebody who broke a promise with a powerful spirit. They are not really related, except that they involve floods. I've even only read a few flood stories that involve building an ark to save mankind, the most common method of humans saving themselves is by moving to higher ground.