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The Rogue One Thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by CavLancer, Dec 23, 2016.

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How do you rate it on 1-5

  1. 1 Fantastic!

    14 vote(s)
    36.8%
  2. 2 pretty good

    18 vote(s)
    47.4%
  3. 3 average

    3 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. 4 not good

    3 vote(s)
    7.9%
  5. 5 Awful

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SelfSustain

    SelfSustain Chieftain

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    I have to admit I thought it was going to be bad but I was pleasantly surprised! The beginning was a bit slow but the last hour really paid off. I would add it to the original trilogy and call it the perfect 4 Star Wars movies!
     
  2. Takhisis

    Takhisis daria dance party

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    up yours!
    I watched it on 2D normal-sized. The face was very much that of Peter Cushing but was a bit too conspicuously CGI. I too think it might have been better with a lookalike and prosthetics.
    De Niro did well in some prequel work back in the '70s IIRC.
    Yep, it was better executed than any of Ep. I-III. It's the quality I'd have expected from the prequel trilogy if it had dispensed with the younglings, Jar-Jar Binks, the useless uber-powerful Cheddar knights, the Neimoidians, the love story, etc.
     
  3. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

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    Don't forget the gawd awful midi chlorians. The Force must be treated with religious reverence. Not explained away with treknobabble
     
  4. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Welp I've seen it. The editing for the first hour and a half was shockingly bad. Individual scenes were poorly paced, and sequences generally didn't do a very good job of establishing stakes/tension. Things just kind of happened with little rhyme, reason or flow. There's zero characterization other than some vague appeals to cliche. Scenes, especially in the first act, were extremely disjointed. Between all the flashbacks, flashforwards, cuts to other storylines, introducing other characters, everything was extremely choppy. I spent the first half hour squinting at the screen repeatedly yelling, "WAT," and trying desperately to figure out what on earth was supposed to be happening. Action scenes were well shot and well choreographed, but without any characterization and establishment of stakes, it was difficult to stay invested at all within those action scenes.

    The final climax was extremely well shot, and at least within the context of the individual sequences and scenes, well edited. The problem was the rest of the movie had made such a mess of the editing and characterization that the climax didn't really feel at all deserved. It was exceptionally well directed and edited action, but, again, without any overriding tension, it was hard to build any kind of an emotional connection with what I was watching. As they were going in to the suicide mission, I found myself asking, "what the hell was the point of the last hour and a half? The whole movie should have just been this suicide mission."

    There were a lot of wider plot/screenwriting problems too. This ties in with the larger editing problems, but the beats don't really feel consequential or logical. Something needs to happen for plot's sake, so an artifice is manufactured to achieve that end. A good example of this is the lead-up to the climax. The rebel alliance rejects the plan to go fetch the plans. So Jane/Jatt/whatever tf her name is gathers a ragtag group and does it anyway. They establish tension that they won't get clearance but then they get it anyway with nothing of consequence happening. Then they sneak in undetected. And then the rebels start fighting on the beach. But they already got in. So what was the point of the other people being there? Then on Yavin they find out about the fighting on the beach...somehow...and immediately dispatch an entire fleet? What? I thought they didn't want to go through with this plan. So what was the point of that scene where the Rebels reject the plan to infiltrate the archives. They needed an excuse for the mission/ship to be called Rogue 1 and for protagonist lady to give 2 big heartfelt speeches. So they manufactured a reason. When they didn't need those reasons anymore, they proceeded to pretend that Reason never happened. Same thing happens when they go to Endou/Indu/Endu. They send Spanish guy to go assassinate Mads Mikkelson. But then they also send a fighter squadron to go bomb the facility. So what was the point of sending Spanish guy? I guess there wasn't much point in risking an entire squadron of fighters to assassinate one guy. But then why send an entire squadron of fighters to assassinate one guy? I guess they just needed a reason to have Mikkelson die in a flashy way so protagonistlady can have her big emotional goodbye dad scene. Or in the end when Tarkin shows up with the Death Star and blows up the entirety of the Empire's archives and schematics. Like. Wat? Why? What was the point of that? Why would you detonate THE ENTIRETY OF THE GALACTIC EMPIRE'S ARCHIVES to prevent one person who is already trapped and/or dead from transmitting plans. Tarkin kind of unintentionally points out how ridiculous this is. His underling points out that the fleet received a message from the planet, so let's fire on the fleet. Nah I'mma just blow up our archives kthx. I guess the director needed an excuse to have Protagonistlady and Spanish guy die in a romantic, beautiful, tragic way. Whatever. What a mess. What is it with Star Wars movies and editing that's so hard to get right?

    It wasn't a terrible movie. It's nowhere near the editing/acting/screenwriting/cinematography/directing disaster that was the prequels. But neither was it a good movie. I'd put it in the realm of Jedi. A decent movie that had some very good individual beats, but it'd be totally forgetful as a film if it weren't associated with the masterpieces that were IV and especially V. I had such high hopes for this one, and it disappointed enormously.

    My rankings:

    V
    .
    IV
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    VII
    .
    .
    VI
    Rogue 1
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I
    III
    II
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
    CrazyScientist likes this.
  5. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Literally all of your plot-related complaints are addressed in the movie (you don't even need to read the books!), but I'll give it a go anyways.

    1. The other soldiers on Scarif were to keep the Imperials occupied. A single group moving through the facility would be easily cordoned off and eliminated. An attack that is implicated to be widespread and in several different areas is not so easily contained.

    2. They didn't dispatch anything. Admiral Raddus acted on his own authority and was already preparing military forces when they intercepted the message of the attack on Scarif. Remember that the Rebel Council opposed the plan because there was little to no chance of getting in, let alone the success of the mission. It was revealed that they had made it onto Scarif and had already breached the Imperial facility. Raddus made a judgement call and sent in the fleet, cashing in his chips on the theoretical success of that mission.

    3. They sent the fighter squadron to Eadu because they lost contact with Cassian. Remember that their ship crashed on the planet. It was assumed that Cassian was deceased and no longer capable of completing the mission: eliminating Galen Erso. The Rebel Alliance was under the impression that the Imperial superweapon, whatever it may be, still needed Galen's direct supervision to be completed. His assassination was meant to delay the completion. That obviously was not the reality of the situation, but only we as viewers know that fact. Why would you invest a fighter squadron to bomb from afar when you can send in an operative that can not only do it quietly but possibly also acquire valuable intel?

    4. Scarif was not the only Imperial archive site. It was the site of the plans for the Death Star but even those are contained elsewhere. There is more than a single copy in the galaxy of something so important. Was Scarif a significant loss? Yes, but here's why it was worth it...

    5. Tarkin needed to eliminate Krennic. He made a point of asking where Krennic was and upon discovering he was on Scarif, gave the order to destroy the archives. It could realistically be argued as an attempt to stop the rebel infiltration and broadcasting of sensitive Imperial documents (true) while having the extra bonus of Tarkin eliminating a serious problem when it comes to his authority within the hegemony.

    6. There was no point for the Death Star to fire on the fleet (not that it realistically could as this is DS MK.1 and not DS MK.2). Tarkin knew Darth Vader was coming.
     
  6. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton How much Parmesan to put on your umbrella?

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    Enjoyed it much more than TFA. Had fun.
    Apparently they did massive re-shoots and re-editing because the studio wasn't happy with what the director was going for and they I had to do so in a hurry. That may explain your grievances, Owen. I'd be curious to see a Director's version.

    I also liked what happened to all the main characters. Makes it much easier for me to accept them as heroes. Since heroism is all about sacrifice, IMO. Not magical survival and fighting skills.
     
  7. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    I'm not talking necessarily about internal reasoning. I'm talking about overriding plot. The scenes end up totally inconsequential. So what's the point of having them at all? What's the point of including the "rebels disagree" scene if the narrative result is the rebels helping out anyway? There's not buildup. There's no foreshadowing. It just kind of happens because they wanted a big set-piece space battle for the climax. The end result is bloat. And I initially thought about omitting the screenplay issues for precisely this reason. It's easy to tunnel on plot issues because they're easier to identify and easier to handwave away. The editing is the real disaster with this movie. It's still totally blowing my mind that this is the state of editing in Hollywood now. Between this, the Assassin's Creed movie, a number of the recent Marvel movies, and most especially the Suicide Squad movie. It's an exceptionally disturbing trend in modern filmmaking. And I don't know if it's just the level of talent in Hollywood right now, if it's a failure of directors/dp's to get proper coverage, if it's a failure of screenwriters to form coherent narratives and arcs, or if it's the fault of producers/the overarching corporations micromanaging the production too much. But regardless of whose fault it is it's totally unacceptable.
     
  8. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Sounds like a 'you' problem. Sorry, man.
     
  9. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    I wouldn't go that far, but I can't help but imagine that going to a movie with Owen would be similar to going to a concert or musical with this girlfriend I had who was second violin in a major orchestra.
     
  10. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Well the thread is "what did you think of this movie," and I thought it was bad. So...
     
    Lexicus likes this.
  11. Kennigit

    Kennigit proud 2 boxer

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    I agree with owen mostly, didn't really write it out but much of the entire middle of the movie was no value added. I just take particular grievance with the seeing the father die scene.

    However unlike owen I find it acceptable, because very few movies actually have a great arc. I thought rogue one remained OK enough that the shortfalls can be glossed over, because otherwise the most probable result in my mind would be something wholesomely worse.

    However particular to this rebel alliance, I liked that it showed some incompetency and (even pointless) disagreement. Even the whole big protagonist speech about hope that just gets shot down by the council, they have a bit of realism by doing "well the council was going to shoot you down anyways." To the viewer it isn't very entertaining, since the end result is they ignore the council and go to take the data plans, but it wasn't too long and felt like a better world building.

    I.e. in my rankings, it was much better than the force awakens but a little less entertaining in the theater, since TFA ended up being based around entirely trashy fun (carbon copy plot, angsty kylo ren). But TFA held no lasting value whereas rogue one does
     
  12. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    I give TFA the nod because at least it had some characterization. At least it had some dialogue. At least it had characters with clearly defined goals who were actively working towards those goals. I think the rebel base scene was the point that finally broke me. Because it brought me to the realization that I neither know nor care who any of these character were. The only dialogue up to that point was in three categories: snarky/sassy remarks; big dumb action speech; or person explicitly telling protagonist where the plot needs them to go next. There were no quiet moments. More importantly there were no warm moments. There was no point in which any of the characters actually sat down and had an honest to goodness conversation with each other. You never get to hear about the characters' wants or needs or interests or motivations or ANYTHING aside from "we need to go to this planet because Forest Whittaker told us to. I cackled. CACKLED at the end of the movie when they're going up the elevator and protagonistgirl and Spanish guy had that romantic moment, and then on the beach Spanish guy says, "your father would be proud." I mean, wat? You never talked to Mikkelson Spanishguy! And you never talked to protagonistgirl about Mikkelson, so where the fudge is any of that coming from?!

    Like compare that to A New Hope, in which the first 45 minutes of the movie is spent hanging out with Luke, learning his wants and needs and personality, as well as that of Obi-Wan, and then intercutting that with stakes-raising tension scenes showing the quest Luke's about to be sent on.

    Compare it to Empire where the first 30 minutes is spent re-acquainting ourselves with the characters of Luke, Han, and Leia, and Setting up their arcs for the rest of the movie. Luke is still weak and needs to learn the ways of the force. Leia and Han bicker but deep down they care for each other. The entire 2nd act is devoted to, alternatingly: Luke (and us) facing his demons and coming to grips with his weaknesses and insecurities, and Han and Leia being stuck in a box together, experiencing stress and trauma, and coming to grips with their feelings with one another. We care about them and want them to succeed in their arcs, and we feel the tragedy of both Luke running from his training (and fighting and getting his ass kicked by Vader) and seeing Leia finally admit her feelings for Han only for him to be wrenched away from her, perhaps never to be seen again. We feel these things because these arcs have been set up and crescendoed properly.

    The key to effective screenwriting (and editing) is the proper establishment, buildup, and resolution of tension, both within individual scenes (e.g. will Luke manage to pull his lightsaber from the ice and free himself before the yeti thing finishes nomming on his tauntaun?) and within an overarching arc (We have seen how Luke still struggles with the force - that run-in with the yeti was close! - will Luke be able master this powerful tool and finally confront the man who killed his father-figure?)

    Rogue 1 fails on both fronts. Yes Protagonistgirl has a want (she wants her charges cleared) but we're never given context. We're never told why she wants to be free, what she's going to do with her freedom when she gets it. The 1st act is usually wholly devoted to establishing the protagonists want, her reasoning and motivation behind that want, and the establishment of a quest leading them towards that want. Rogue 1 doesn't really do this. We have the scene where her mother dies, sure, but then it jumps forward and shows her in jail. Exposition tells us it's for forgery and being a fugitive and whatnot. But we don't see any of this from her. Think about Han in ANH. Another scoundrel on the run. His want a big payday so he can clear his debt to Jabba. This is a secondary arc, and yet it's much stronger than protagonistgirl's. We get a feel for his character: fast-talking, self-serving and uncompassionate. We get an establishment of stakes for why he has his want: he needs da cash or bounty hunters like Greedo are going to keep chasing him. And we get a quest to achieve his want: deliver Luke and Obi-Wan to Alderaan.

    Usually the 3rd act arrives when the protagonist achieves their want but comes to the realization that there is a larger need that they must still pursue. For example in a romcom, this would be when the erstwhile sleazy guy gets the sleazy thing he wanted at the start (that promotion he was lusting after) but realizes what he needs is love, so he throws away his want (he tells his ******* boss to shove it) and professes his love to girl. In ANH Han gets his big payday, but realizes he cares deeply for Luke and so blows off Jabba to go bail his friend out. The payoff is Han coming back to save the day. And the payoff is satisfying because it's been building up over the course of the whole movie. We've seen Han morph over the course of the movie from standoffish, selfish prick to noble friend and ally. We've seen the growing chemistry between the two building up over the course of all of act ii. We've seen them talk to each other about themselves and each other. We've seen them bicker and butt heads, and we've seen them triumph and praise each other. The conclusion in which Han comes back for Luke is therefore satisfying.

    In Rogue 1 the need is to go on the suicide mission and steal the plans. But this need isn't really established. We're shown why the Death Star is a threat, but Protagonistgirl is never given a motivation to discover (internally) or pursue this need. Theoretically it should be the love for her father, or her love(?) for Spanishguy or a sense of duty to the rebellion. But none of these are established. Protagonistgirl doesn't have a character, just the faint whisperings of one (the random throwaway dialogue with Whittaker and the random flashback that happens and is never revisited or mentioned again). Because of this, there's no payoff. Protagonistgirl's arc feels hollow. Spanishguy suffers from the same problem, but even worse. At least Protagonistgirl has the vague inklings of an arc. Spanishguy has none character. Protagonistgirl's blaster has more of an arc than he does.

    This is overlong, and I hope you get the point, but basically the characters are bad and the editing is bad and it makes me mad.
     
  13. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    If you're going to be so invested in being critical, you could at least learn their names.

    Jyn and Cassian did not have any romantic scenes. You read into those moments further than intended.

    I don't really know why Jyn needs a higher cause that is shoved into the faces of the viewers, nor do I see why a lack of a higher cause is a sign of bad screenwriting. It's a very human trait to be passionate and invested without a coherent, thorough reasoning.

    Men rush to arms for slight causes, or no cause at all, and once taken up there is no longer any respect for law, divine or human.
    - Huig de Groot, Dutch jurist and philosopher
     
  14. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Why should I bother to learn their names when the movie doesn't bother to give characters to those names? To call her "Jyn" would imply there's roundness or personality there. Someone I can connect with and root for or against. Someone with wants and needs and hopes and desires. Instead she is merely a vehicle to move the plot forward, feeling and believing in whatever is necessary to get the movie to the next location. She is Protagonistgirl. Spanishdude is Spanishdude because literally the only memorable thing about him is that he has a Spanish accent. Literally the only characterization he gets is that one throwaway line fairly deep into act II/III where he says something to the extent of "I have been fighting since I was six, I have lost too," or whatever. But again, at that point it's too far gone. The weak characterization is cliche and way too late into the movie for me to get invested. Same thing happened with the Donnie Yen character and Wen Jiang character when they tried to throw some pathos their way at the end.

    And it's necessary to give characterization and motivation because that is the essence of storytelling. If you don't give those things then the movie feels aimless and lifeless. It drags. Maybe you personally don't need those things, but then I suppose there's no accounting for taste, is there?
     
  15. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    I felt suitably aimed and lifelike during the movie.
     
  16. r16

    r16 not deity

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    the size of the franchise makes it more effective with supporting material , this is not an insult or attempt to rob the casual moviegoer but the weak starting ( which is indeed weak ) will be butressed by a dozen books and stories and the fan , maybe next year or the next after that , will be content . Was personally troubled by the attack on Eadu , considered it the peak of boredom , but after reading the both novels now available and hard-core fans complaining on how a bearded Latino gets inside into the most heavily guarded facility of Spacenazis (which is an entirely valid argument , too) that sequence is "essential" . Force leads the guy love the girl , enough not to kill her dad and guy's commander failing to understand "it's operational" already sends in bombers . What goes next is indeed spoilerworthy .

    still working hard to "reason" this movie's space slug though , needs quite a work .
     
  17. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    What was this video from, a game or something?

    As for Rogue One, I didn't like the character of Cassian, I thought that the actor picked wasn't very good at portraying the character. He came off as wooden and stereotypically "rebel". You know like the French accented guy who talks about the revolution in the South Park movie? The generic cliched revolutionary who speaks with a slight accent. Bleh

    Apparently everyone loves this guy, in some part due to his apparent success in other movies. I have never heard of him though, but that doesn't really matter. I don't think he was the right actor for the role or the writing, that or the writing or directing was shoddy. The first hour of the movie moves slowly, and this guy is in a bunch of those scenes. It's a bit cringy to see him on screen trying to get his lines out. It's not as bad as Episode 1 or whatever, but he just doesn't fit into those scenes at all. Thankfully once the action picks up things get a lot better, but I don't think I can watch the movie again without cringing whenever Cassian tries to say something
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  18. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    Can we just forum ban this guy? How dare you sir. Phantom menance is star wars in name only, it nearly killed the entire franchise on it's own. You can delete over half that film and make it better which is sad. Pod racers are stupid, the kid who plays anakin is atrocious and jar jar is the antichrist.

    Proper rankings should be something like

    Top tier amazing:
    Empire Strikes Back
    The Force Awakens
    Rogue One

    Middle tier average movies:
    A New Hope
    Revenge of the Sith
    Clone Wars
    Return of the Jedi

    Bottom of the barrel bad movies:
    Phantom Menace.

    Rank them within their tiers however you want, like if someone likes Rogue one more than Empire that's understandable but there is no way in hell you can objectively say Return of the Jedi is better than Rogue One for example. Although Clone wars and Jedi are on the cusp. I think Jedi has enough redeeming qualities like Jabba the Hutt, sarlac pit, the emperor and epic final battle to overcome it's stupid parts like ewoks, final party scene and the horrible remaster of it, campy-ness of some of jabba's palace scenes.

    As for rogue one, excellent film. I think they did a great job of balance new stuff and fitting into the star wars universe and loved the subtle fan service stuff like seeing the mos eisly guys.

    I thought the best part though was the tone. They showed the rebels and not straight white vs black, good vs evil kind of guys. The rebels did some really shady things in that movie. Sol Guerrua or however it's spelled is a pretty mean guy. I liked that view of things.
     
  19. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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  20. Kozmos

    Kozmos Jew Detective

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    Should have watched Machete then.
     

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