The Winds of God

[Ziggy Stardust]

I feel God's Guffs is indeed a fitting title for this fantasy.

 

[Berzerker]

Calling it a bracelet implies that it's a solid thing. The asteroid belt is not solid.

Does this mean you don't like my suggestion to call it a cowboy hat?

Belts aren't solid? They are, they're just not pounded out from a chunk of material. The asteroid belt was, several chunks of hot material. So yeah, hammered bracelet is a better description than asteroid belt.

Yes, do you have a problem with that? Why is it that the anti-science portion of the population are so impatient, and want everything NOW?

Asking for your evidence is anti-science and telling me it will show up sooner or later is science?

Lots of them will have come by when there was no life to see them, or at least no life that knew they were anything worth looking at. Some came by but couldn't have been seen with the naked eye. And some will have swung by when people saw them but had no idea what they were... so they made up stories with no scientific basis to them. Even in 1910, people were making up all kinds of garbage, fleecing gullible people out of the money by selling them "comet pills". Some will come by in the future, and who knows if there will be anyone here to see them?

Earth passes through the remains of comets several times a year. They're the source for the meteor showers.

Why aren't you complaining that we don't see more stars and galaxies, if there's so many of them?

We do see them... we dont see your comet cloud.

You need to learn how to recognize sarcasm. As in "Of course you should tell professional astronomers to embrace ancient Babylonian fantasies because they're more accurate than real science that's backed by observation and photographic evidence."

I understand your sarcasm, I was questioning your logic. If the Babylonians did not address your cloud of comets why would I refer astronomers to them?

Their myths show they made up more planets. They had no way to see the others, therefore they could not have seen them.

Of course, if you have tangible, incontrovertible proof that they did, please provide it. So far you've provided nothing but fantasy.

Their myths show they made up more planets but you want incontrovertible proof they believed there were more planets? Btw, I never said they saw them, I said they knew about them and I've been supplying the evidence in these threads, their literature, images, oral traditions, architecture etc etc show they believed in more planets. How many? Well, 9 seems to be quite popular. But the Enuma Elish says Marduk was clothed with the halo of 10 gods before the Moon acquired its role in creation. The Incan and Toltec 'sky' had 12 or 13 levels of heaven depending on how we address the creator's 'duality', but they also believed in 9 as a subset of creation, like the 9 lords of the night and the Incan Genesis depicting 9 'planets' linked to their creator. The Sumerian cylinder seal VA243 shows 11 objects circling a star. Even Ptolemy's 'universe' had 12 layers. So, 9 to 13 is the range we see in myth, not 5...

as it really failed to penetrate that I don't give a damn about your silly myths? They're nothing but stories, made up by ancient people to explain things they didn't understand. You need modern knowledge to shoehorn into your myths to make them work, and for that you're reduced to saying "Aliensdidit."

So you have no evidence the 5 visible planets were the basis of ancient cosmologies. Seems kinda important, dont you think?

Why not? It's an interesting question, once you take away all the mythological claptrap. If anyone is seriously researching this, why wouldn't they say something? It would get people talking, raise some questions, and possibly spark an idea that could help confirm or refute the hypothesis.

You said papers must exist, now you're asking why they wouldn't exist. Maybe that aint done yet. Maybe they dont want someone beating them to the discovery. I dont care why, you're the one who thinks it matters.

But if Pluto was once a moon of Saturn, what about the other Kuiper Belt Objects? Were they once moons of Saturn, too?

Unlikely, the other outer planets underwent disruptions too so the Kuiper Belt population probably has several sources. But for KBOs associated with Saturn's equatorial plane the odds are better they came from Saturn. Like Pluto...

The only place I ever heard this was here, from you. Google search doesn't appear to support your notion. If there was any credibility to it, there should have been a dozen hits on the first page. There were zero.

Like I said, remember where you heard it first. Is every discovery met by skeptics demanding to know why nobody else made the discovery sooner? That wheel wont work, we dont have papers on it! Well, I made no discovery... That came from someone else long ago.

 

[Senethro]

Berz, all you're doing is matching up numbers of things actual scientists have observed to things in your imagination. Even then, you're cheating by allowing yourself this four-or-five, six-or-seven wiggle room.

Maybe you should make solid predictions based on your expertise to show your model is robust. Because otherwise it looks like you're making it up as you go along when you see something you can use.

 

[timtofly]

Who were the Nephilim?

Upon entering the promised land, Joshua told the Hebrews their fathers served other gods in the land of the 2 rivers. Who were their fathers? Abraham and his ancestors, the patriarchs. Where did Cain (or was it Enoch or Nimrod?) build his city? The land of the 2 rivers.

The Nephilim is the term used for humans whose genetics gives them a larger than normal size. Even Joshua was one of the twelve spies, of which 10 declared the sons of Anak as Nephilim. How the genetics enters and effects the human race is the unanswered question. Giant humans were allegedly before and after the flood. Perhaps as I offered there are humans existing in another dimension on earth that can interact with humanity at any given time? Humanity forgets the specifics but stories get passed on and turn into legends and myths. Even in the Americas there were incursions of great hero's or gods who may be mistaken as europeans, but these gods were only from the area and not known humans. Probably the same human/gods mentioned by all of Indo-European ancestry. It was the descendants of the 6th day created beings who lost the eternal spirit of God (immortality). Perhaps not the actual humans created on the 6th day. Adam lost his immortality when he ate the fruit. That was his punishment and the punishment of all his descendants, but the other 6th day humans are only mentioned that their descendents had offspring with Adam's descendants. It was then that their descendent's life span was changed to 120 years. They were no longer immortal.

Now we claim that humans invented this race of humanity. What they wrote was not their actual experiences. Sounds to me humans only write fake news by that logical conclusion, and no one is capable of recording actual history. I am pretty sure we can record our experiences and calling it fake or mythical is just an excuse to not accept what was recorded at any point in history. Now in each generation of humans we have people who generate fake news and fiction all the time. There may not even be a way to determine what is what as handed down throughout history.

What is your point about serving ancient gods? Joshua does not describe it as the "land of 2 rivers". I agree that Joshua told those going into the new land to not serve the gods of the ancestors of Abraham on the other side of the great (Euphratis) river. He also told them not to serve the gods of Egypt in the same text. What does this have to do with the captivity hundreds of years after Joshua allegedly lived? The captured Hebrews took their stories with them to Babylon. They did not make them up after they arrived.

 

[Berzerker]

Here is the drawing; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_mythology

The four stars under the "window" are the southern cross. Someone with better Spanish than me can do some translating. The organization is pretty haphazard. The two rows of dots are called the eyes, not seven planets.

BTW, there are many Mayan pyramids that do not have nine levels. Finding one or even two that do, doesn't mean a thing. The fact that Chichen Itza was a late site diminishes your theory that 9 levels was important to them.

I think thats in Quechua, but focus on the image - its our solar system with something splitting or dividing it in two. With 4 inner planets and 5 outer, that dividing line is between Mars and Jupiter. Not all pyramids were built to represent the same aspects of the cosmos. Toltec mythology was based in part on the 9 Lords of the Night. The 9 stepped pyramid at Chichen Itza shows a 7 humped serpent ascending and descending the pyramid on the equinoxes. I think 9 and 7 were important to them. The 7 dots dont represent 7 planets, they represent Earth. Here they are in Sumerian myth.

http://www.lavocedellemuse.com/gilgamesh-nella-foresta-dei-cedri/

7 'eyes' play a role in Hindu myth too...

Google 9 in Mayan mythology if you dont think it was important, 13 and 9 were how the Maya conceived of the cosmos - 13 heavenly levels with 9 underworlds all with accompanying gods

The Maya believed that 13 heavens were arranged in layers above the earth, which itself rested on the back of a huge crocodile or reptilian monster floating on the ocean. Under the earth were nine underworlds, also arranged in layers. Thirteen gods, the Oxlahuntiku, presided over the heavens; nine gods, the Bolontiku, ruled the subterranean worlds. These concepts are closely akin to those of the Postclassic Aztec, but archaeological evidence, such as the nine deities sculptured on the walls of a 7th-century crypt at Palenque, shows that they were part of the Classic Maya cosmology.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/pre-Columbian-civilizations#ref1056408

According to ancient Mayan beliefs the Cosmos was made up by Nine Underworlds. This fundamental idea was expressed very powerfully through their most important pyramids, the Pyramid of the Plumed Serpent in Chichen-Itza, the Pyramid of the Jaguar in Tikal and the Temple of the Inscriptions in Palenque, which were all built with Nine different stories.

http://calleman.com/content/pyramid_of_consciousness.htm

I'll just leave this here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/in-the-beginning.568762/page-84#post-14500810

Thanks for digging that up

But that is the answer to your question...

I didn't ask about the density of the Oort Cloud, I asked why we dont see more of them if we're surrounded. I know we cant see this alleged cloud, but we can see them when they approach the sun - so where are they? They've had 4.6 billion years to be nudged into elliptical orbits bringing them closer to the sun. Our sky should be lit up with passing comets.

Berz, all you're doing is matching up numbers of things actual scientists have observed to things in your imagination. Even then, you're cheating by allowing yourself this four-or-five, six-or-seven wiggle room.

Maybe you should make solid predictions based on your expertise to show your model is robust. Because otherwise it looks like you're making it up as you go along when you see something you can use.

I didn't incorporate these numbers into myths nor did I write them, so it aint my imagination we're exploring. As for cheating, this wiggle room was created by the scientists and the myth's authors.

So how big were these asteroids? According to this model, as many as four could have been over 600 miles wide while around 3-7 were closer to 300 miles wide.

See? Wiggle room. They're not sure exactly how many hit the Earth and the myth is unclear how many "winds" were involved or how many impacts occurred. If I was declaring an exact number you'd be complaining about that.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

what are some good academic sources to read up on wrt babylonian/sumerian pantheon or early religions in genral? what are some good academic sources to read up on wrt similarities between abrahamic religions (esp the genesis as a text) and older religions? this is something I've been wanting to tackle for so long..

There is no need for any "belief system" in logic.

All axiom based systems rely on a leap of faith.. contemporary science is indeed a belief system.

the same goes for evidence, really. few great ideas start with evidence. they start out as hunches, maybe even less. evidence is then gathered, later.

I personally do not believe in any sort of ancient alien delusions, but to think science or logic are not inherently based on belief is just wrong.

even the fact that our empiricist perception of the world can be neatly contained, or explained via systems of thought is a belief in and of itself.

consciousness or qualia or solipsism or determinism or simulation theory are also based on belief.

by the way I think your posts, or rather your prose and spacing, are extremely beautiful and should honestly be collected, always a pleasure to read.

Stop being willfully obtuse. Seriously, just stop it.

why do you even reply to these threads? you come in here with a huge attitude trying to smash Berzerker and just end up looking very bitter. why spend your time debating someone you believe to be completely deluded? that's the most nonsensical thing itt and this thread sure is rich in nonsense. at this point you are well aware you're not convincing him, so why even bother? it seems like a complete waste of time.

I personally like these threads and read all of Berzerks "theories", and I'm sure they've taught me more about pre-abrahamic religions than most of my highschool education has

Never tell me what to think or feel or believe. Never assume you know what I think or feel or believe, or that I'm not being truthful when I tell you. Never assume that I'm not being truthful if my view doesn't match your view. I'm not your doormat.

This is your signature. Yet you come here and do exactly that, tell Berzerker what to believe.

 

[Berzerker]

The Nephilim is the term used for humans whose genetics gives them a larger than normal size....<...>

What is your point about serving ancient gods? Joshua does not describe it as the "land of 2 rivers". I agree that Joshua told those going into the new land to not serve the gods of the ancestors of Abraham on the other side of the great (Euphratis) river. He also told them not to serve the gods of Egypt in the same text. What does this have to do with the captivity hundreds of years after Joshua allegedly lived? The captured Hebrews took their stories with them to Babylon. They did not make them up after they arrived.

Who conceived the Nephilim? These 'giants' were the offspring of the sons of god who came down from the sky. These sky beings were ETs... They came from another world.

Joshua said to all the people, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Long ago your ancestors, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates River and worshiped other gods.

Joshua 24:2

The point is you were dismissing Mesopotamia as a relevant source of information for Hebrew mythology.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Belts aren't solid? They are, they're just not pounded out from a chunk of material. The asteroid belt was, several chunks of hot material. So yeah, hammered bracelet is a better description than asteroid belt.

Stop being willfully obtuse. Seriously, just stop it.

The word "belt" is used in several contexts in astronomy, geography, geology, and meteorology. The asteroid belt is not solid. Neither is the Van Alllen radiation belt.

Asking for your evidence is anti-science and telling me it will show up sooner or later is science?

You keep demanding that all the Oort Cloud comets should show up NOW, so we can see them NOW, or at least ALL THE TIME. Because they don't, you've decided they don't exist. You seem incapable of understanding just how vast the outer Solar System really is, how far away everything is (from other comets, as well as from us), and how hard it is for humans to see any but the brightest ones with the naked eye.

That's not asking me for evidence. It's just spinning your mental wheels, after I've already explained why we don't see Oort Cloud comets that often.

So be patient. There's one in the vicinity now, but it's not visible to the naked eye unless you're in a very dark location and you have extraordinarily good vision. Check the astronomy sites.

When you do see one, be happy it arrived when you had the opportunity to see it. After all, chances are that the last time it was in the vicinity of Earth, humans hadn't even reached the Bronze Age. The next time it comes, we will hopefully have spread out into the solar system and beyond... or we'll be extinct.

Hale-Bopp was extraordinary, and I remember feeling happy and excited when I saw it. I was taking astronomy in college at the time, and the instructor was also pleased when I mentioned this to him.

We do see them... we dont see your comet cloud.

Oh, you personally have seen the stars and galaxies that are too far away for naked-eye observation or basic telescopes? Wow, you must have extraordinary vision.

And speak for yourself about the Oort Cloud, 'k? Putting on the royal "we" when you just mean yourself is...

I understand your sarcasm, I was questioning your logic. If the Babylonians did not address your cloud of comets why would I refer astronomers to them?

You've been rambling on for years on this Babylonian fantasy, acting like the real astronomers know less than ancient people who had no way of knowing the modern information you keep shoehorning into their stories, and less than pseudoscience peddlers like certain individuals I will not name because you'll claim I brought up their names.

Their myths show they made up more planets but you want incontrovertible proof they believed there were more planets? Btw, I never said they saw them, I said they knew about them and I've been supplying the evidence in these threads, their literature, images, oral traditions, architecture etc etc show they believed in more planets. How many? Well, 9 seems to be quite popular. But the Enuma Elish says Marduk was clothed with the halo of 10 gods before the Moon acquired its role in creation. The Incan and Toltec 'sky' had 12 or 13 levels of heaven depending on how we address the creator's 'duality', but they also believed in 9 as a subset of creation, like the 9 lords of the night and the Incan Genesis depicting 9 'planets' linked to their creator. The Sumerian cylinder seal VA243 shows 11 objects circling a star. Even Ptolemy's 'universe' had 12 layers. So, 9 to 13 is the range we see in myth, not 5...

Was "I don't care" some obscure concept that was unclear from my last post?

They had no way to know of any planets beyond Saturn, so your Pluto claims are just nonsense.

So you have no evidence the 5 visible planets were the basis of ancient cosmologies. Seems kinda important, dont you think?

That's not what I said. There are copious ancient writings (primary sources) regarding Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

Not one of them mentions Pluto in the context of a planet.

You said papers must exist, now you're asking why they wouldn't exist. Maybe that aint done yet. Maybe they dont want someone beating them to the discovery. I dont care why, you're the one who thinks it matters.

You're still not getting it. Even if someone is actively researching this and doesn't want anyone to "beat them to the discovery" there should still be some mention somewhere of a hypothesis. I couldn't find one. The only person I've ever seen who is interested in this is you.

Like I said, remember where you heard it first. Is every discovery met by skeptics demanding to know why nobody else made the discovery sooner? That wheel wont work, we dont have papers on it! Well, I made no discovery... That came from someone else long ago.

Now we claim that humans invented this race of humanity. What they wrote was not their actual experiences. Sounds to me humans only write fake news by that logical conclusion, and no one is capable of recording actual history. I am pretty sure we can record our experiences and calling it fake or mythical is just an excuse to not accept what was recorded at any point in history. Now in each generation of humans we have people who generate fake news and fiction all the time. There may not even be a way to determine what is what as handed down throughout history.

Humans didn't invent humanity. Humans evolved and, for now, our species is dominant. Some other species will replace us at some point, assuming we don't manage to make this planet uninhabitable for everything.

There's a difference between making up a story to explain something not understood, such as where lightning comes from and recording things such as daily records of sales or court cases. Cuneiform tablets have been found and translated that are the same sort of records any literate people would keep of things pertaining to their work and daily lives.

 

[timtofly]

Who conceived the Nephilim? These 'giants' were the offspring of the sons of god who came down from the sky. These sky beings were ETs... They came from another world.

Because mixing the point of angels like lucifer (who do come as et's) with the point that God created the sons of God like Adam is wrong. Angelic beings are not mentioned in the same verse. Sons of God and angels are two different types of beings. That they can have offspring is science fiction and pure imagined mythology. Your "father the devil" is a metaphor not a genetic fact. It is possible that Anak was created on the 6th day, and allowed to return in visible form after the flood, and father a family of giants whom were still alive during the time of Joshua.

Joshua 24:2

The point is you were dismissing Mesopotamia as a relevant source of information for Hebrew mythology.

What any descendant of Abraham knew after he left Mesopotamia, would have been totally different after God told Abraham to leave Ur and changed his identity, from what history passed down to those in Mesopotamia after Abraham left. We hardly get history of the original 13 colonies by the descendants of slaves comparing notes with current people living in Africa. Did all Africans both here and in Africa have the same ancestors? Some did, but their histories and recollections did not create the mythology of the 13 colonies.

In the case of Abraham, his ancestors were not even from Ur. His family migrated from the North, and he just happened to have lived in what would become Babylonian territory later in history.

 

[Birdjaguar]

You're still not getting it. Even if someone is actively researching this and doesn't want anyone to "beat them to the discovery" there should still be some mention somewhere of a hypothesis. I couldn't find one. The only person I've ever seen who is interested in this is you.

Here is the source of the problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin

And here is one of his ctitics: \]http://www.sitchiniswrong.com

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Here is the source of the problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin

And here is one of his ctitics: \]http://www.sitchiniswrong.com

That makes me want to scrub my brain out with a Cosmos video. The one in which Carl Sagan debunks Velikovsky should do nicely.

 

[Ajidica]

These sky beings were ETs... They came from another world.

I dunno. The Book of Enoch makes it pretty clear it was angels, not ET attempting to phone home, who were the sires of the Nephilim.

And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: "Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children." And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: "I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin." And they all answered him and said: "Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing." Then swore they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.
...
And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three hundred ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood.

 

[Birdjaguar]

From what the picture says, you have ignored the words and cherry picked just the parts you like and which can be made to fit into you belief system.

Link to the image; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Santa_Cruz_Pachacuti_Yamqui_es.gif

I think thats in Quechua, but focus on the image - its our solar system with something splitting or dividing it in two. With 4 inner planets and 5 outer, that dividing line is between Mars and Jupiter. Not all pyramids were built to represent the same aspects of the cosmos. Toltec mythology was based in part on the 9 Lords of the Night. The 9 stepped pyramid at Chichen Itza shows a 7 humped serpent ascending and descending the pyramid on the equinoxes. I think 9 and 7 were important to them. The 7 dots dont represent 7 planets, they represent Earth. Here they are in Sumerian myth.

The names in the image may be Quechua, but the other words are Spanish.

Look at the four stars under the oval that form a cross. it says:

"Chacana en general"
"saramama" is corn mother
"cocamama" is coca mother


The chakana (or Inca Cross) is a stepped cross made up of an equal-armed cross indicating the cardinal points of the compass and a superimposed square. The square is suggested to represent the other two levels of existence. The three levels of existence are Hana Pacha (the upper world inhabited by the superior gods), Kay Pacha, (the world of our everyday existence) and Ukhu or Urin Pacha (the underworld inhabited by spirits of the dead, the ancestors, their overlords and various deities having close contact to the Earth plane). The hole through the centre of the cross is the Axis by means of which the shaman transits the cosmic vault to the other levels. It is also said to represent Cusco, the center of the Incan empire, and the Southern Cross constellation.

The Chakana is associated with the Southern Cross stars not planets. The text on the picture says that. If those four stars represent four planets, then why is Venus shown separately? See red text below.

At the top of the chart it says: "decir tres estrellas todas iguales" translated by me: describes all three stars iguales (today it means lottery tickets??)

Other gods listed:
viracocha god of everything
Inti god of the sun, the sun
under Inti is another star image labeled as ...chaska coyllur... which is Venus the star of the morning and evening.

• Ch'aska ("Venus") or Ch'aska Quyllur ("Venus star") was the goddess of dawn and twilight, the planet

Quilla god of the moon

llamado quiere = the named to want or to love
este de la tarde this, she or the east is late
sucho = crippled
Nube = cloud
niebla = fog, weather
verano = summer
invierno = winter

Then there are more images and words of importance to the Inca. Many you can guess.

http://www.lavocedellemuse.com/gilgamesh-nella-foresta-dei-cedri/

The "Sitchin is wrong" site deals extensively with all the ways this image is incorrectly interpreted by both you and Stitchin.

Ok, I'm done for now. time for dinner.

EDIT: opposite Venus (to the right) in the picture there is a less complex star image labeled "choquechinchay"

Chocachinchaykaypacha; maintenance of fertility and diversity. Awareness or peaking of the sense(s). (2) The rainbow jaguar, the bridge between heaven and earth. (3) A constellation that rises 30 days after solstice. JLH Also the name of the star or constellation that represented large cats. AEAA (4) An animal of many colors, said to have been chief of the otorongos. PYS A large animal that had all colors and was the guardian of the hermaphrodites. Chuquichinchay is the same name that some early chroniclers give to the constellation now called the Pleiades.

So we can see from this image that the Incan cosmology was complex and included many different night sky objects. Venus is the only named planet I can find in the picture and it is misplaced as far as Berzerker's view. The five asterisks/objects at the top are not named or in any way identified that I can find. Calling them Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto is just wishful thinking.

 

[cardgame]

So berzerker acknowledges that this is MYTH yet he's still acting the fool and playing numerology games with it?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

All axiom based systems rely on a leap of faith.. contemporary science is indeed a belief system.

No.

the same goes for evidence, really. few great ideas start with evidence. they start out as hunches, maybe even less. evidence is then gathered, later.

This is in keeping with the scientific method. Somebody has an idea and develops a hypothesis. After that they figure out how to gather data. After that's done, the data is analyzed to figure out if it refutes the hypothesis. If it does, back the drawing board. If not... maybe that somebody is on to something. More evidence is needed, so other scientists repeat the steps the first one took. If they get consistent results, things are looking up.

I personally do not believe in any sort of ancient alien delusions, but to think science or logic are not inherently based on belief is just wrong.

What "belief" do you think they're based on?

why do you even reply to these threads? you come in here with a huge attitude trying to smash Berzerker and just end up looking very bitter. why spend your time debating someone you believe to be completely deluded? that's the most nonsensical thing itt and this thread sure is rich in nonsense. at this point you are well aware you're not convincing him, so why even bother? it seems like a complete waste of time.

My reasons are my own, and not for you to dictate. What I choose to do with my time is my business. You don't get a vote on that.

I know I'm not ever going to convince Berzerker that this whole thing is out to lunch, because he's been peddling it for over a decade (there are old posts at Apolyton where he spouts the same stuff as he has here... and didn't get a favorable reception there, either).

But hopefully other people will be reminded that evidence in the form of artifacts and primary sources is necessary to even begin to take it seriously when somebody starts claiming that myth = scientific fact, and that the scientific method matters.

I personally like these threads and read all of Berzerks "theories", and I'm sure they've taught me more about pre-abrahamic religions than most of my highschool education has

He has no theories. He has notions that aren't taken seriously by any reputable scientists.

If you like that sort of stuff, that's fine, you can like whatever you want. But if you try to pass it off as real science, that's when it becomes a problem.

Never tell me what to think or feel or believe. Never assume you know what I think or feel or believe, or that I'm not being truthful when I tell you. Never assume that I'm not being truthful if my view doesn't match your view. I'm not your doormat.

This is your signature. Yet you come here and do exactly that, tell Berzerker what to believe.

First of all, my signature is not addressed to Berzerker. You have no idea why I chose that sig.

Secondly, I'm not telling him what to think. I've stated on several occasions that he's free to believe whatever he wants, no matter how silly it is. After all, I used to be into ancient aliens, and my 13-year-old self would have been in agreement with everything he said.

But the difference is that I grew up. I studied anthropology and history and several years of chemistry and other sciences taught me the importance of evidence and the scientific method. By the time I was 16 I was over that ancient aliens nonsense.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Btw, I never said they saw them, I said they knew about them

If they never observed them, how did they know about them?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Unlikely, the other outer planets underwent disruptions too so the Kuiper Belt population probably has several sources. But for KBOs associated with Saturn's equatorial plane the odds are better they came from Saturn. Like Pluto...

Can you describe exactly how you think Pluto is associated with Saturn? As established 2 years ago, all you seem to be saying is that when Pluto is in opposition to Saturn, AND this coincides with when Pluto is at aphelion (I think), then Pluto lies roughly in Saturn's equitorial plane (but many, many AU away). This doesn't seem to be aything other than a coincidence (such as, again, saying Polaris is "associated" with Earth). But really I want some sort of description of how a moon that is in orbit around a parent planet can be "perturbed" in such a way that it ends up in a completely different orbit around the Sun, 30 AU away. It would have to be something like... Pluto being in orbit around Saturn when it (gravitationally?) interracts with some other massive object that imparts it with a significant amount of kinetic energy, enought to shift it a further 30 AU away from the Sun. Then when it gets out there, it would have to have a similar interraction with another massive object to then push it into a completely different orbit that now no longer goes anywhere near Saturn's orbit and isn't related to it at all, other than Pluto's orbital plane and Saturn's equatorial plane intersect in a particular way that you find interesting.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I didn't ask about the density of the Oort Cloud, I asked why we dont see more of them if we're surrounded. I know we cant see this alleged cloud, but we can see them when they approach the sun - so where are they? They've had 4.6 billion years to be nudged into elliptical orbits bringing them closer to the sun. Our sky should be lit up with passing comets.

Why? You only see comets when they're near the sun. Oort cloud objects are on highly eliptical orbits with incredibly long orbital periods and only spend a tiny fraction of that orbit anywhere near the Sun. Any more frequent visitors will also be burned up faster so there are less likely to be any of those left. Basically the longer you wait, the less likely you are to see them in the sky.

 

[Lexicus]

Humans didn't invent humanity.

Humans invented the concept.

Oort cloud objects are on highly eliptical orbits with incredibly long orbital periods and only spend a tiny fraction of that orbit anywhere near the Sun

IIRC most of the Oort cloud objects don't even get near the Sun, comets are the ones that are pulled for whatever reason - I think the idea is that it's most often gravitational interaction with stars neighboring the Sun - into very high-eccentricity orbits with part of the orbital path being quite close to the sun.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Humans invented the concept.


IIRC most of the Oort cloud objects don't even get near the Sun, comets are the ones that are pulled for whatever reason - I think the idea is that it's most often gravitational interaction with stars neighboring the Sun - into very high-eccentricity orbits with part of the orbital path being quite close to the sun.

I have seen mention that some astronomers estimate that the solar system is larger than we thought, possibly by a light-year. Since the Centaurus system is so close, this would not surprise me.