Cloud_Strife
Deity
I was planning on bringing a selection of knives or an axe to school but my parents pulled me out of the public school system before i could pull a Columbine.....
The UK doesn't need another Thomas Hamilton
There are more of us than there are of them
- Thread starter Hygro
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The UK doesn't need another Thomas Hamilton
Moderator Action: Please move past that puerile thread-jack and back to the thread as a whole. Please also do not make light of tragedies - serious health issues should not be trivialised in such a fashion.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Zardnaar
Deity
Alot of that doesn't apply to me in my situation lol. Things for women here I suspect are very different than the USA. My privilege was being born in NZ.
My mother's first husband abused her and I heard the stories.
While I don't buy into the more extreme SJW positions I do but into things to make women's lives easier including Iceland style Maternal/Paternal parental leave systems, universal welfare so women can leave abusive husband's, etc. NZ is decades ahead of the USA on most of the points you raised. We're not perfect but I know GoP women who has mentioned most of your points.
My main point about privilege though is economic not racial. Plenty of poor whites didn't get much in the way of white privilege.
A rich black is going to have an easier life than a poor white.
I'm well aware my main privilege of being born in NZ although in a similar situation in the USA I suppose there would have been no divorce due to lack of welfare options.
Main point is having upper and middle class University educated elites lecture people from disadvantaged backgrounds about white privilege is not going to go down well.
It would be the equivalent big me lecturering someone from Moldova about the way they should live.
The rich preachy foreigner just rubs the locals up wrong that's more or less true right around the world. Same thing with the rich preachy liberal type Trump used that in the 2016 election.
It's also the reason why I'm so big on housing and the ratio of housing to wages. If you're not getting that much money but healthcare is free and housing is cheap it makes life a lot easier.
Economic distress is also what pushes people towards extremism. And yes immigration puts pressure on housing. I'm not advocating throwing kids into camps though but reducing legal migration (NZ has different problems than USA immigration). I wouldn't be deporting anyone who came here legally more managing the future arrivals.
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Zardnaar
Deity
I cheated and used a cricket bat.
Of course those things don't apply to you, that's my entire point Mr Phillips 
Doing some online research, I don't seem to be able to find any evidence that things are all perfectly rosy for women in your country ... for one thing, you don't even seem to have civilized abortion laws (two doctors must sign off saying it's medically necessary? Eek) You still have a gender wage gap, and serious problems with workplace segregation by gender. Unemployment and underemployment rates are worse for women, and especially non-white women. Apparently too you have cultural issues that are impeding enforcement of domestic violence laws (apparently less than 1 in 5 are reported) It looks like your first woman House Speaker was in 2005, while ours was 2006 ... that's hardly "decades." And in some areas (such as abortion rights) you're behind the US.
So please stop with your nonsense, I imagine you simply see only what you want to see, much like your blindness to the rise of fascism in western nations.
And you still don't seem to understand what privilege is about. Of course wealthier people have easier lives than poor people. But poor white people have it better than poor black people, and so on. A higher percentage of white people are wealthy, and have better access to education and jobs. As a white person, you and I have fewer barriers in our path, though I have far more than you due to my sex (even in New Zealand, non-white women seem to have the hardest time)
I read a story that I think helps with a good analogy: imagine you're a tall person, standing to watch a live show. A shorter person is standing behind you, and cannot see. You have a "privilege" advantage they don't due to your height: and the correct way to fix this is for you to let them stand in front of you (would you object to this?) Switching places with them doesn't make you shorter, but now you both can see ... but sure you had to trouble yourself with moving positions a little (and stepping back a foot or two) But people object to this, and won't move; and when that short person asks for accommodation, they're accused of being "whining SJWs."
Doing some online research, I don't seem to be able to find any evidence that things are all perfectly rosy for women in your country ... for one thing, you don't even seem to have civilized abortion laws (two doctors must sign off saying it's medically necessary? Eek) You still have a gender wage gap, and serious problems with workplace segregation by gender. Unemployment and underemployment rates are worse for women, and especially non-white women. Apparently too you have cultural issues that are impeding enforcement of domestic violence laws (apparently less than 1 in 5 are reported) It looks like your first woman House Speaker was in 2005, while ours was 2006 ... that's hardly "decades." And in some areas (such as abortion rights) you're behind the US.
So please stop with your nonsense, I imagine you simply see only what you want to see, much like your blindness to the rise of fascism in western nations.
And you still don't seem to understand what privilege is about. Of course wealthier people have easier lives than poor people. But poor white people have it better than poor black people, and so on. A higher percentage of white people are wealthy, and have better access to education and jobs. As a white person, you and I have fewer barriers in our path, though I have far more than you due to my sex (even in New Zealand, non-white women seem to have the hardest time)
I read a story that I think helps with a good analogy: imagine you're a tall person, standing to watch a live show. A shorter person is standing behind you, and cannot see. You have a "privilege" advantage they don't due to your height: and the correct way to fix this is for you to let them stand in front of you (would you object to this?) Switching places with them doesn't make you shorter, but now you both can see ... but sure you had to trouble yourself with moving positions a little (and stepping back a foot or two) But people object to this, and won't move; and when that short person asks for accommodation, they're accused of being "whining SJWs."
Zardnaar
Deity
Of course those things don't apply to you, that's my entire point Mr Phillips
Doing some online research, I don't seem to be able to find any evidence that things are all perfectly rosy for women in your country ... for one thing, you don't even seem to have civilized abortion laws (two doctors must sign off saying it's medically necessary? Eek) You still have a gender wage gap, and serious problems with workplace segregation by gender. Unemployment and underemployment rates are worse for women, and especially non-white women. Apparently too you have cultural issues that are impeding enforcement of domestic violence laws (apparently less than 1 in 5 are reported) It looks like your first woman House Speaker was in 2005, while ours was 2006 ... that's hardly "decades." And in some areas (such as abortion rights) you're behind the US.
So please stop with your nonsense, I imagine you simply see only what you want to see, much like your blindness to the rise of fascism in western nations.
And you still don't seem to understand what privilege is about. Of course wealthier people have easier lives than poor people. But poor white people have it better than poor black people, and so on. A higher percentage of white people are wealthy, and have better access to education and jobs. As a white person, you and I have fewer barriers in our path, though I have far more than you due to my sex (even in New Zealand, non-white women seem to have the hardest time)
I read a story that I think helps with a good analogy: imagine you're a tall person, standing to watch a live show. A shorter person is standing behind you, and cannot see. You have a "privilege" advantage they don't due to your height: and the correct way to fix this is for you to let them stand in front of you (would you object to this?) Switching places with them doesn't make you shorter, but now you both can see ... but sure you had to trouble yourself with moving positions a little (and stepping back a foot or two) But people object to this, and won't move; and when that short person asks for accommodation, they're accused of being "whining SJWs."
I never claimed we were perfect.
Abortion laws.
We don't have abortion on demand if that's what you mean. It's not hard to get one and is free. I've known women who have had them.
Domestic violence.
Same problem around the world with a lot not being reported. We have women's refuge, universal welfare, a benefit for kids (pays more than unemployment). If she reports domestic violence to the police she not gonna be disbelieved and taken back to her husband and the law gets enforced.
A higher % of whites are richer along with Chinese but they've been trying for decades to fix that. Schools get extra funding for students from certain groups. Schools are ranked decile 1 to 10 which reflects the wealth level of the surrounding community.
Decile 1 (the poorest)schools get more funding.
Good intentions but it resulted in NZ white flight. They brought in zoning laws so property in zones with better schools costs more. My high school was decile 6. All schools are publicly funded.
School is also free up to tertiary level, government pays around 80% of tertiary education the rest is interest free loan. Acceptance is basically guranteed.
I got kicked out of high School aged 16, still got to go to polytechnic and university later. I made a lot of mistakes when I was younger.
They've made it very easy for everyone. Culturally is a problem for some ethnic groups as they don't value tertiary education. Much like America we have a lot of Asians at our University's because culturally there's a lot of pressure to do so.
Pay gap. I think we've got it very close 94% or so. But that's for women with no kids, the pay gap is a motherhood tax. IDK how to fix that except maybe copy Iceland (which I support) You get extra money for having kids it's called working for families.
It's a bit different where I live vs say Auckland. When I went up there they would usually ask you where you lived which was a polite way of asking you how much you earn. They kind if segregated themselves up there along economic lines. My brothers school up there is decile 9 and it's full of Chinese. Rich Asians live here,poor whites live there, poor brown people live over there.
Never had redlining or segregation or anything like that. Government went pure free market in the 80s even more than the USA. We have proportional representation, Maori in parliment are slighty over their % of the general population, and we've elected or third female PM. I voted for a 37 yo pregnant unmarried women. 3/5 of our recent PMs gave been Women (they were all men before that but they brought in proportional representation 1996 and we have had 5 PMs since then).
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You still don't listen to a thing. Why are you arguing?
Like in my analogy, when that shorter person behind you asks to step in front, do you go into a whole tirade about how you're where you're supposed to be and tell them that everyone can see fine (because you can)?
You don't understand what a lot of what I'm talking about is, and you're thinking very simplistically. There's quite a deal of segregation in the workforce, women make up more than 80% of employees in lower-wage jobs, which is a big driver for the earnings gap (which is more than 5%, NZ's is closer to 10%, which is good but not perfect)
You admit that even your country has work to do, but you still think any change has to be approved by you - this is an example of your male privilege again, thinking you get a say in everything. You don't. Instead of dictating to people what you'll allow, you need to learn to defer authority and just listen.
Like in my analogy, when that shorter person behind you asks to step in front, do you go into a whole tirade about how you're where you're supposed to be and tell them that everyone can see fine (because you can)?
You don't understand what a lot of what I'm talking about is, and you're thinking very simplistically. There's quite a deal of segregation in the workforce, women make up more than 80% of employees in lower-wage jobs, which is a big driver for the earnings gap (which is more than 5%, NZ's is closer to 10%, which is good but not perfect)
You admit that even your country has work to do, but you still think any change has to be approved by you - this is an example of your male privilege again, thinking you get a say in everything. You don't. Instead of dictating to people what you'll allow, you need to learn to defer authority and just listen.
Zardnaar
Deity
Are you claiming that make jobs pay more or the pay gap for equivalent jobs?
There's no institutional impediment here for women going into tertiary education or becoming an engineer etc.
They still have large disparities in certain fields.
Women make up close to 60% if tertiary students here. They're out performing males at school as well.
There's a lot if semi skilled work here though that does pay more than a female job. You can go work in a port, forestry, driving a forklift etc.
Those jobs pay more than say supermarket work. That's capitalism though not sexism a lot if guys can't do those jobs either you need a certain amount of physical strength which rules out a lot if guys and most women.
For jobs if equal position the wage gap is very narrow the exception being is women who have kids.
White New Zealand or social stats are similar to Scandinavia aka best in the world. The average is dragged down by other groups due to cultural reasons.
We have a lot of Islanders here, worked with a lot and back home in the islands they get beaten by their parents. That's cultural though.
If you're a white women here your white privilege such as it is would be cultural or economic. We do have things like old boys/girls networks, and informal networks that would give a native born NZer an advantage over say a white immigrant. You might know someone from school, a friend of a friend, a friend of your parents sort of thing.
When I said NZ was decades ahead if the USA that's what I meant,never claimed we're perfect.
For example they brought in a domestic purposes benefit in the 70s to enable women to leave abusive husband's. We have universal healthcare, welfare here and cheap tertiary education and things like automatic acceptance although if you flunk you might not qualify for a student allowance.
And as I said women are outperforming men at school and university but that's going to take another 20 odd years to filter up due to boomers retiring.
Most women I know are a scientist, chemist, doctor, CEO. I paid attention in the 90s with the type of women I enjoyed spending company with. It wasn't the ones my friends liked.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
If you are a person judging from a model you should be gracias and thank people talking from personal observation and experience.
If you want to operate from a model, including the intrinsically obvious-for-me model of privilege theory you need to behave above, not below, persons acting out their personal understanding for your benefit and consideration.
That’s the job and obligation of people thinking and acting from a position of models.
If you want to operate from a model, including the intrinsically obvious-for-me model of privilege theory you need to behave above, not below, persons acting out their personal understanding for your benefit and consideration.
That’s the job and obligation of people thinking and acting from a position of models.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
You think that governments will nuke their own territory and population?
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Even more insane is that he thinks SJW's pose the same existential threat that right-wing extremists do to society as a whole
Zardnaar
Deity
Citation please.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Imagine believing the two are in anyway equivalent, imagine believing that the above is in anyway equivalent to the threat posed by right wing extremists, regardless of type.
Imagine seriously putting forth or entertaining the idea that "Sjws" are the lefts version of fascists
Zardnaar
Deity
Ah not me. I support the right of fascists (or whoever) to express their views. I believe in consequences so if they get booted off social media tough luck.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Except fascists expressing their views can cause demonstrable harm to society.
Zardnaar
Deity
So can lots of things though.
I have thought about it more and booting then off social media is fine but you probably want somewhere semi public where they can rant and rave.
That way SPLC or whatever can keep an eye on them.
Vs using the dark web or encryption apps.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Your "solution" is to essentially allow them to operate, spread their hatred and recruit/grow.
It's like you've learnt nothing from history, you keep repeating the same mistakes.
It's like you've learnt nothing from history, you keep repeating the same mistakes.
If they're on the "dark web", but not allowed anywhere else, then the goal of them not causing demonstrable harm has been achieved. You don't want them public. They can do harm that way. Also, if you think the intelligence agencies of the world can't operate in or track activities on the "dark web", you're severely underestimating how many systems they have backdoors into.
You seem to think that letting them be somewhere public, lettting them "vent", is the equivalent of letting a boiling kettle letting off a bit of steam. It's a far more dangerous reality than that, regardless of how unaffected you are, how much of a minority by-the-numbers you think fascists are, and so on.
Also for the love of Montressor, enough with the "so can lots of things". We have strict regulations on nuclear power moreso than other types of power because of the increased inherent risk. You can't just say "X is as bad as Y" every time you're confronted with X (or Y). That's exactly how government policy comes to overreach and target innocent citizens. By the normalising of the belief that "all these varying unfavourable things are as bad as one of the worst examples".
You seem to think that letting them be somewhere public, lettting them "vent", is the equivalent of letting a boiling kettle letting off a bit of steam. It's a far more dangerous reality than that, regardless of how unaffected you are, how much of a minority by-the-numbers you think fascists are, and so on.
Also for the love of Montressor, enough with the "so can lots of things". We have strict regulations on nuclear power moreso than other types of power because of the increased inherent risk. You can't just say "X is as bad as Y" every time you're confronted with X (or Y). That's exactly how government policy comes to overreach and target innocent citizens. By the normalising of the belief that "all these varying unfavourable things are as bad as one of the worst examples".
Zardnaar
Deity
In an interview Hilary Clinton said there's probably less than 500k fascists in the USA.
The Klan has 5-10k last I looked. Throw in Ayra. nation's and the other various splinter groups your looking at a few tens of thousands.
USA population 320 million.
There's probably not even 100 000 actual fascists in the USA.
That's what I mean when you use hyperbole describing people to the right of Obama as either fascists or enablers. Not overly useful?
Godwin's law used to be a thing.
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