[RD] Trans Genocide

[Lexicus]

I mean, as opposed to "genocide"? Do you honestly believe that's a more appropriate term?

With regard to the Florida policy at issue here? Yes. I mean, "socially accepted erasure" is literally just using three euphemistic words when one would do.

And in the bigger picture, if I may return a question for a question, are you honestly unable to connect the dots between this sort of thing and the right in this country openly stating that transness (apologize if this is incorrect term) is against the fundamental order of the universe (or against god's plan) and passing all these discriminatory laws designed to cut trans people off from supports and interventions that are proven to save their lives?

 

[sophie]

We’re referred to as a contagion. Republican governors want the death penalty for doctors who prescribe gender affirming treatment to trans youth. Florida wants to block any transition from happening, even “social transition.” Fox News and the right wing rags are running regular stories about how we’re seducing and raping children, and that we need to be stopped before we come for yours. Fascist paramilitaries are regularly vandalizing, invading, and assaulting queer spaces. I mean they refer to us as “the trans question,” for god’s sake.

This is a completely uncontroversial matter among trans circles. We all understand what is going on. Right now the conversation is about lining up hookups for diy meds and planning exit strategies to flee the country if the need arises. We have moved on from “is a genocide is happening,” to “what do we do when they start trying to force-detransition us or put us in camps.” We are one Republican White House + Congress from things getting really really really bad for us*

NB: as opposed to what they are now, which is merely really bad.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

We’re referred to as a contagion. Republican governors want the death penalty for doctors who prescribe gender affirming treatment to trans youth. Florida wants to block any transition from happening, even “social transition.” Fox News and the right wing rags are running regular stories about how we’re seducing and raping children, and that we need to be stopped before we come for yours. Fascist paramilitaries are regularly vandalizing, invading, and assaulting queer spaces. I mean they refer to us as “the trans question,” for god’s sake.

This is a completely uncontroversial matter among trans circles. We all understand what is going on. Right now the conversation is about lining up hookups for diy meds and planning exit strategies to flee the country if the need arises. We have moved on from “is a genocide is happening,” to “what do we do when they start trying to force-detransition us or put us in camps.” We are one Republican White House + Congress from things getting really really really bad for us*

NB: as opposed to what they are now, which is merely really bad.

Cis people just don't get how bad it's gotten, it's genuinely dangerous being trans

 

[Sommerswerd]

cis people really just do not give a ****, do they?

Some do. I do.

We have to wait until an arbitrary amount of trans people die or "stop existing" before it's even considered morally, let alone legally, wrong

Yes. Correct Cloud, absolutely correct. No hyperbole whatsoever, in the sense that until the worst happens and even worse than that, this issue that is life and death for some and a discussion topic for others, will not receive the standing that you are urging. I have no solution for that, but I do recognize it.

"Use euphemisms because the brutal reality makes people uncomfortable" is not a convincing argument

Well said, and I'll add that exactly what you identify is worse, in that it allows, over time, for people to to twist powerful, groundbreaking, revolutionary messages, into, vague inoffensive platitudes, like for iconic example, the odiously misused/misquoted/misinterpreted/mal-interpreted "judged, not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character" historic quote.

 

[Yeekim]

I see no-one actually defending the Florida legislation under question here.
I would never vote for anyone who proposed something like this.
Can't we settle on this common ground, or do we have to fight over whether or not it constitutes genocide?

 

[Synobun]

I see no-one actually defending the Florida legislation under question here.
I would never vote for anyone who proposed something like this.
Can't we settle on this common ground, or do we have to fight over whether or not it constitutes genocide?

When site staff posts an official notice decreeing that what trans people are undergoing isn't genocide... yes? Clearly some people aren't convinced. It's important. Minimizing the reality of the risk and what's happening is to trans people's disadvantage, and they are already fighting against a machine that is hellbent on their removal from society. Centrist fence-sitting and "it's really not so bad" has no place in a productive conversation.

 

[Lexicus]

I see no-one actually defending the Florida legislation under question here.
I would never vote for anyone who proposed something like this.
Can't we settle on this common ground, or do we have to fight over whether or not it constitutes genocide?

There are substantive things that follow from the claim that it is genocide. For example, some pages ago I said that the federal government should depose the Florida government by force to enforce the Constitution. I also believe that officials involved in making and enforcing this rule should face justice for crimes against humanity.

If you don't agree with those things, then this is a substantive disagreement and not angels on a pinhead, right?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I see no-one actually defending the Florida legislation under question here.
I would never vote for anyone who proposed something like this.
Can't we settle on this common ground, or do we have to fight over whether or not it constitutes genocide?

They're already in positions of power, what about this do you not understand?

Trans people are telling you they're in danger and your response is to say "well maybe they're not, actually", what common ground is there to have with a person who won't even acknowledge the level of threat we're under?

We are being forcibly detransitioned, denied life-saving medical care, being labelled child abusers and an existential threat to cis, white women, we're being killed at an alarming rate and being subjected to levels of harassment that you yourself wouldn't last a year dealing with it, so what common ground is there to be had with anyone who denies this?

 

[Kyriakos]

There are substantive things that follow from the claim that it is genocide. For example, some pages ago I said that the federal government should depose the Florida government by force to enforce the Constitution. I also believe that officials involved in making and enforcing this rule should face justice for crimes against humanity.

If you don't agree with those things, then this is a substantive disagreement and not angels on a pinhead, right?

Regardless of validity of the sentiment, you already know no such thing is going to happen (federal gov deposing the Florida government). So if the sentiment was primarily to justify such a course of action, it is entirely theoretical, thus the opposite of "substantive"; unless you mean substantive for the individual/group but without any possibility of leading to actual societal change.

Re the term "genocide", I personally don't mind it being used in this context, since it has been used this way before - for example in school program deficiencies for aboriginal or native peoples.

 

[Gorbles]

I see no-one actually defending the Florida legislation under question here.
I would never vote for anyone who proposed something like this.
Can't we settle on this common ground, or do we have to fight over whether or not it constitutes genocide?

The thread is literally split from another thread to discuss the actions constituting genocide. It's literally the thread topic. Why do you have to fight the definition at all? What necessitates your involvement in said fight?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Removing hrt is going to lead to trans people dying, through suicide or other, more direct means and some can't seem to grasp that fact, let alone acknowledge it.

Now is that inability to recognise this a bug that can be addressed via conversation or is it a feature of a negative, anti trans belief system that forces people to deny what we see with our very eyes?

If someone was to suggest any other group wasn't the recipients of violence and discrimination on this board they'd be punished, but when it comes to trans people we're expected to entertain all sorts of crap, specifically from people with a history of making posts that show their anti trans views.

Is there something unique about trans people that allows for this level of dehumanizing conversation, where our own identities and bodies can be dismissed and we can told point blank that we are wrong about our own lived experiences?

Not a single person here who denies the level of animosity, the level of desire of anti trans people to see us gone from society, through whatever means they have, would last a day in trans people's shoes and the horsehockey we have to go through just to live a comparatively normal life on par with a cis person.

Society, the media, religion, the internet, political organisations, terfs, cis men chasers etc label us as deviants, threats to women and children, objects to masturbate over and freaks to gawk at and not a single one of you on here can tell me with a straight face that isn't the case without holding some sort of animus against us.

I refuse to entertain that and if you do post something to that effect i and others will criticize you and point out the inherent heartlessness of your position

 

[Yeekim]

The thread is literally split from another thread to discuss the actions constituting genocide. It's literally the thread topic. Why do you have to fight the definition at all? What necessitates your involvement in said fight?

I am in this thread because of ... curiosity, I guess? To better understand perspectives that I am not familiar with. That and... well, as mods we get lots of reports.

I don't have to fight the definition of course. I could just disagree in silence... but that would defeat the purpose of a discussion forum, no?
Because yes, while denying transition is obviously nasty, petty, hateful thing to do, I don't see it as equal to outright murder. I recognize that this may be somewhat due to my own lack of capacity to really process the experience of being trans. I'm trying to imagine a situation where I wake up with a female body and, well, I'd definitely choose that option over being killed. I'd also choose it over e.g. losing an arm. I'm trying to figure out how much money I'd be willing to pay to prevent this from happening and honestly I'm unsure... I guess it would depend on whether my partner would accept me with a female body.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I don't see it as equal to outright murder.

If the end result is that trans people end up either committing suicide or not existing at all what is the functional difference?

The intent is to still to remove us from society

 

[Gorbles]

I am in this thread because of ... curiosity, I guess? To better understand perspectives that I am not familiar with. That and... well, as mods we get lots of reports.

I don't have to fight the definition of course. I could just disagree in silence... but that would defeat the purpose of a discussion forum, no?
Because yes, while denying transition is obviously nasty, petty, hateful thing to do, I don't see it as equal to outright murder. I recognize that this may be somewhat due to my own lack of capacity to really process the experience of being trans. I'm trying to imagine a situation where I wake up with a female body and, well, I'd definitely choose that option over being killed. I'd also choose it over e.g. losing an arm. I'm trying to figure out how much money I'd be willing to pay to prevent this from happening and honestly I'm unsure... I guess it would depend on whether my partner would accept me with a female body.

There have been many links (that I don't have to hand, but they're in the main LGBTQ News thread if not this one already) showing how gender-affirming care and things like HRT reduce the established negative consequences of gender dysphoria (like self-harm and suicide).

If someone was starving to death in a well, and somebody else had the ability and access to easily relieve them of that situation . . . are they not responsible for the outcome, at least in part? This is why we have government, no? Arguably? To look after its citizens? The news being discussed isn't even a preservation of the status quo (however insufficient that may be), it's an actual regression from that.

So when we go to the UN page, we get this line:

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

Now the problem people will like to pick on is "deliberate", but again, we're discussing the government. Any choice made in-context will be deliberate, and the associated costs will be either evaluated as part of the decision, or ignored (in favour of decision). Unless we assume the government just whoopsied and made this entire decision completely through nothing but incompetence. But it doesn't seem that way given how the changes impact solely trans people (as noted by schlaufuchs already) and not cis folk who need the same or similar kinds of treatment.

This is why it seems pretty open-and-shut, at least to me (and obviously others, but speaking solely from the perspective of a cis dude).

 

[Yeekim]

If the end result is that trans people end up either committing suicide or not existing at all what is the functional difference?

I think the difference is that suicide is still a choice.
Bullying also often leads to suicide - yet we do not treat bullies as murderers. Even though state bullying its citizens like this is certainly shameful.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I think the difference is that suicide is still a choice.
Bullying also often leads to suicide - yet we do not treat bullies as murderers. Even though state bullying its citizens like this is certainly shameful.

If i go out of my way to make your life miserable by constantly calling you a pedophile or rapist, incite violence against you, urge you everyday to kill yourself, force you to live under the constant threat of physical violence, make everyone look.at you like you're a freak and generally do all i can to make it so that suicide is your only option for relief from the shame, stigma and discrimination then i am functionally committing a murder by any other means

I don't care much for your apologetics man
I've been:

1. Sexually abused as a result of being trans

2. Nearly killed as a result of being trans

3. Had my own humanity denied to me as a result of being trans, by way of repeated misgendering by people in positions of power and authority

4. Been told, by medical providers involved in trans healthcare, that I'm delusional and will never be a "true woman".

5. Told that i am an existential threat to cis women and children based upon being trans

6. Denied opportunities based upon being trans

7. Beaten, jumped, punched, had items thrown at me as a result if being trans

This is the horsehockey we have to deal with and the majority of it is either sanctioned by the government or the institutions designed to protect it turn a blind eye

I want common ground with you but you aren't giving me many options that don't involve denying my experiences and personhood

 

[Farm Boy]

The intent is to still to remove us from society

It's still the testing that has the greatest chance of actually accomplishing that in the future.

 

[Yeekim]

If i go out of my way to make your life miserable by constantly calling you a pedophile or rapist, incite violence against you, urge you everyday to kill yourself, force you to live under the constant threat of physical violence, make everyone look.at you like you're a freak and generally do all i can to make it so that suicide is your only option for relief from the shame, stigma and discrimination then i am functionally committing a murder by any other means

I don't care much for your apologetics man
I've been:

1. Sexually abused as a result of being trans

2. Nearly killed as a result of being trans

3. Had my own humanity denied to me as a result of being trans, by way of repeated misgendering by people in positions of power and authority

4. Been told, by medical providers involved in trans healthcare, that I'm delusional and will never be a "true woman".

5. Told that i am an existential threat to cis women and children based upon being trans

6. Denied opportunities based upon being trans

7. Beaten, jumped, punched, had items thrown at me as a result if being trans

This is the **** we have to deal with and the majority of it is either sanctioned by the government or the institutions designed to protect it turn a blind eye

I want common ground with you but you aren't giving me many options that don't involve denying my experiences and personhood

Truly sorry for this. 1, 2 and 7 sound like serious crimes. I hope whoever was responsible faces punishment one way or another.
5 and 6 are just stupid and hateful.
I don't really get why you perceive misgendering (3) as denial of humanity though? Impolite/insensitive as it is... both males and females are still human, no?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Denying my identity as a woman is denying my humanity, just as it would be if Russia invaded your country again and forced you, under threat of violence, to abandon your Estonian identity, culture and language.

I am more than my body or the circumstances of my birth and those that seek to define me solely by that deny me my humanity