[RD] Trans Erasure

[Valka D'Ur]

No it wouldn't be ok but it wouldn't be genocide either.

Government-sanctioned/ordered elimination of an identifiable minority is not genocide in your world?

I've been told by people that they're surprised that "someone like me" is allowed to vote. I've also been told that the at-risk people (those who would be most at risk of dying of covid due to chronic health/disabilities) should be rounded up and put in camps and left there so the "normal" people could just get on with life and not have to bother with the inconvenience of masks and vaccines.

I'm not claiming that either the federal government or my provincial government wants to kill me for being disabled. But they're not making it very damn easy to exist, either, and it's not a joke that some social workers and politicians would rather give a disabled person a MAID application than try to help them find housing that's both accessible and affordable (there's a thread about this).

 

[Arakhor]

Since most people seem to believe that your gender is fixed at birth, the "reality of biology" is *also* that some people are trans.

 

[Ajidica]

Without having any familiarity with the scholarship here, it's quite hard to say why they've reached that conclusion but my bet would be that they don't think the eliminationist intent was there? I dunno, maybe you should tell us the answer here, presumably having read it.

Regarding the mass killings of Hutus by RPF forces, it is generally accepted that there was a goal among RPF leadership to reduce the Hutu population to a state of passive acceptance of RPF rule without a political capacity. Mass killings and "well, they deserved it because they are all genocidaires" certainly had that effect. Create a situation of fear where Hutu civilians were supposed to smile for the western cameras about "communal justice" and "traditional rehabilitation", backed by the threat of calling them a genocidaire. The RPF plan to eliminate any sense of Hutus as having a political capacity was highlighted in the murder of pro-RPF Hutu politician Seth Sendashonga.
In other words, even though this was a campaign of mass killing of Hutus with a political goal, to create a hostile environment and erasure of Hutu political capacity in the face of a Tutsi-controlled Rwanda, it does not constitute genocide because the goal was not to eliminate Hutu, merely reduce them to a state where they had no capacity to show any political resistance to the RPF.

In light of Igloo's post and request, this will be the last post I make on this subject in this thread.
I would suggest to the OP that she considers renaming the thread to "Trans Erasure", or something like that, to avoid opening the "what is genocide" question.

 

[bernie14]

Seriously?


We're done.

gotta be careful when you throw out words like "wired to"

 

[Moriarte]

Government-sanctioned/ordered elimination of an identifiable minority is not genocide in your world?

What’s wrong with the word “elimination”? Or a bunch of other words good enough to get the point across. Ten pages of dislikes of specific use of word genocide mixed in with various displays of indignation. If this easy one-word “bump” is so difficult to traverse…

 

[Absolution]

These are in no way the same thing and shouldn't be presented as being so.

Claiming that these are not the same things, and ending with a dot without an explaination - is one reason why people hate the progressive agenda.

There is a clear reason why these are not the same, and there is no reason not to present it:
Regardless of the aims of the specific current actor, the practice of blackface itself is rooted in historical mockery of dark skinned people in America.
Drag shows aren't known to be historically a mockery.

That's it.
For that reason, I wouldn't mind watching a modern show with a brown-painted actor if the aims are ok - but I will not produce one to present for a wide public, among which people that can be offended.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Since most people seem to believe that your gender is fixed at birth, the "reality of biology" is *also* that some people are trans.

The brain is a part of the reality of biology.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

gotta be careful when you throw out words like "wired to"

It's slang that shouldn't be too hard to understand, given that most people here are high school and university-educated to the extent of being familiar with biology and have at least heard of the theory of evolution, whether or not they accept it as factual. Granted, not everyone here has taken physical anthropology, but I have. It's not rocket science.

What’s wrong with the word “elimination”? Or a bunch of other words good enough to get the point across. Ten pages of dislikes of specific use of word genocide mixed in with various displays of indignation. If this easy one-word “bump” is so difficult to traverse…

Honestly, sometimes I feel like I'm posting from another universe in which I'm making sense but nobody else is understanding it.

Genocide has a list of recognized actions that define it. Call it what it is, because using 'softer' words or euphemisms means a lesser degree of understanding of how egregiously wrong it is, and wiggle room for denial that it either is happening, or could easily happen if the wrong people get into power and start turning their bigotry into law.

Drag shows aren't known to be historically a mockery.

Drag is an activity that has been around for millennia. Whether or not polite society of the time and place accepted it is another issue.

 

[Gorbles]

Claiming that these are not the same things

Asking me to disprove a negative and then following up with some claim about the "progressive agenda" is silly enough to not to have to refute. The same goes for the equivocation of blackface and drag.

 

[Absolution]

Honestly, sometimes I feel like I'm posting from another universe in which I'm making sense but nobody else is understanding it.

Genocide has a list of recognized actions that define it. Call it what it is, because using 'softer' words or euphemisms means a lesser degree of understanding of how egregiously wrong it is, and wiggle room for denial that it either is happening, or could easily happen if the wrong people get into power and start turning their bigotry into law.

I think that genocide can not be essentially done against such a category of people, because the aim of genocide is to drive a population closer to extinction.

Extinction of a population is nearly an irrelevant term when cases like transgender people are concerned.
This phenomenon is neither genetically nor culturally heritable. Therefore, killing all trans people and their wider families will not necessarily affect the number of future people seeking for transgender proceedures.

Anti-trans opinion holders may suggest various other hard measures to fight the phenomenon, but extinction is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Gorbles]

Therefore, killing all trans people and their wider families will not necessarily affect the number of future people seeking for transgender proceedures.

I recommend you Google the history of anti-gay legislation and the history of HIV, and how that's negatively-impacted generations of people. Culture is inherited because it's knowledge. Knowledge is inherited; knowledge is lost.

And knowledge lost causes harm. Lack of support networks harm. Lack of educated elders (because they're dead) harm.

 

[IglooDame]

I think that genocide can not be essentially done against such a category of people, because the aim of genocide is to drive a population closer to extinction.

Extinction of a population is nearly an irrelevant term when cases like transgender people are concerned.
This phenomenon is neither genetically nor culturally heritable. Therefore, killing all trans people and their wider families will not necessarily affect the number of future people seeking for transgender proceedures.

Anti-trans opinion holders may suggest various other hard measures to fight the phenomenon, but extinction is pretty much irrelevant.

"genetically heritable" - citation required. I've read some things that imply it might indeed be heritable. No I don't have links for you. I'm adopted, no genetic history, and no children of my own, I don't care about genetic heritability here.

That aside, you think if every left-handed person on planet Earth and their progeny were executed tomorrow, it wouldn't take several generations for left-handedness to become a visible measurable thing again? Just purely from the stigma attached? Okay, not technically "extinction", but jeezum, for all practical purposes (mine, at least) it pretty much is.

Besides, no one I know of is claiming truly global mass-extinction (technical or otherwise) is imminent. I'm far more concerned about enclaves making our existence impossible or illegal via attacks on legal, social, and medical transitioning.

 

[Lexicus]

As we are talking about genocide, should the mass killings of Hutus by the Rwandan Patriotic Front be considered genocide?

Why would this be a contest

 

[Noble Zarkon]

There are people who are ableist and don't consider disabled people to deserve normal human rights. If some future government decided to get rid of the "disabled problem" (because we are considered 'unproductive' and a 'burden on society'), would that be okay because we're not an ethnic group or nation?

That would be terrible, worthy of condemnation and of taking action against but not genocide.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

the "reality of biology" is *also* that some people are trans

Surely there's a difference though between someone with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, who has undergone transitioning and who has been living in their identified gender for some time than someone who decides to identify as female after being charged with rape and then insists on being called a woman.

Part of the issue here is that self-identification is not the law (it was blocked by the UK government after being passed by the Scottish Parliament) but operationally many parts of Scottish society operate as if it is.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Surely there's a difference though between someone with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, who has undergone transitioning and who has been living in their identified gender for some time than someone who decides to identify as female after being charged with rape and then insists on being called a woman.

Part of the issue here is that self-identification is not the law (it was blocked by the UK government after being passed by the Scottish Parliament) but operationally many parts of Scottish society operate as if it is.

Why is "self-identification" okay for literally every other group BUT trans people?

 

[IglooDame]

Surely there's a difference though between someone with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, who has undergone transitioning and who has been living in their identified gender for some time than someone who decides to identify as female after being charged with rape and then insists on being called a woman.

Part of the issue here is that self-identification is not the law (it was blocked by the UK government after being passed by the Scottish Parliament) but operationally many parts of Scottish society operate as if it is.

Which begs the question, where do you think a diagnosis of gender dysphoria becomes legitimate, in the eyes of a government?

When would you have allowed me to have my driver's license, passport, and birth certificate gendermarker changed, and with what justification?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Which begs the question, where do you think a diagnosis of gender dysphoria becomes legitimate, in the eyes of a government?

In the UK this is governed by the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, the criteria is basically where someone has had a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (validated by 2 doctors), has lived in the acquired gender for at least two years and intends to continue to live in the acquired gender until death.

Why is "self-identification" okay for literally every other group BUT trans people?

Even if you accept the premise (people can't just identify as drivers they need to pass a test and get a licence) the events this week in Scotland show why safeguards are needed given the impact on other people.

 

[Perfection]

Surely there's a difference though between someone with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, who has undergone transitioning and who has been living in their identified gender for some time than someone who decides to identify as female after being charged with rape and then insists on being called a woman.

This feels like one of those absurd hypotheticals that transphobes use to block transwomen from using the bathroom.

edit: I mean for real, okay even if someone actually tries to beat a rape change by pretending to be trans I don't think it'd actually work. It's an awful strategy that anyone with half a brain would see through. I see no reason why this should prevent self-identification.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

okay even if someone actually tries to beat a rape change by pretending to be trans I don't think it'd actually work. It's an awful strategy that anyone with half a brain would see through. I see no reason why this should prevent self-identification.

It's not about beating the charge it's about forcing your victim to refer to you as she, it's about getting sent to a woman's prison where you have more opportunities to abuse women. If this doesn't show you the dangers of self-identification I don't know what would.