Trouble in the Gulf: Ties to Qatar cut

[red_elk]

Nor required!

What do you have in the form of baked goods?

Third-party cookies, of course.

 

[danjuno]

That's why I stated: "During the UK-IRA conflict, with lots of terrorist attack..."

My apologies if you took that as being directed at you personally, I was just making a general statement.

Anyway, all those Theoautocracies in the Gulf are as bad as each other. Honestly, the only countries in SW Asia I'd have any trust for are Lebanon, an independent Kurdistan, or a Zionist Union/Meretz-led Israel.

 

[luiz]

My apologies if you took that as being directed at you personally, I was just making a general statement.

Anyway, all those Theoautocracies in the Gulf are as bad as each other. Honestly, the only countries in SW Asia I'd have any trust for are Lebanon, an independent Kurdistan, or a Zionist Union/Meretz-led Israel.

In the Middle East you can't have everything. I think a lot of people in the West realized that, which is why there is hardly any criticism of the increasingly authoritarian Sisi government in Egypt. Thing is Sisi's Egypt is a reliable ally of the West and one of the countries the most engaged in the fight against Islamism. So lecturing them about their lack of democracy, or even worse, sponsoring some kind of Islamist Spring (as was done against Mubarak) would be totally idiotic (as the West's support of the Islamist Spring was idiotic).

We should never forget that in the ME, the alternatives are often worse. For instance, I hate the house of Saud as much as the next guy, but people often forget that in Saudi Arabia the most organized and popular opposition to the regime does not come from some nice liberals, but from even crazier Islamists. So if the region can move towards reliable and anti Islamist despots like Sisi, that would be a huge improvement from the current state of affairs.

 

[danjuno]

Yes, unfortunately life is not like I'd like it to be. If only an earthquake would strike the Mideast while miraculously sparing anybody who wasn't a autocrat or jihadist.

 

[dutchfire]

I'll admit that I didn't expect to see so much Saudi Arabia lovin' when I started this thread.

 

[luiz]

I'll admit that I didn't expect to see so much Saudi Arabia lovin' when I started this thread.

Where did you see it? I didn't see a single person defending them. In fact what I saw was universal condemnation, in the strongest terms.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Where did you see it? I didn't see a single person defending them. In fact what I saw was universal condemnation, in the strongest terms.

Well, one person isn't condemning them. As I predicted, rather than consider that he may have been wrong about them, or just taken in by them, Trump takes credit for organizing this himself.

 

[Zkribbler]

Trump takes credit for organizing this himself.

Trump takes credit for the sun coming up in the morning

 

[Cheetah]

In the Middle East you can't have everything. I think a lot of people in the West realized that, which is why there is hardly any criticism of the increasingly authoritarian Sisi government in Egypt. Thing is Sisi's Egypt is a reliable ally of the West and one of the countries the most engaged in the fight against Islamism. So lecturing them about their lack of democracy, or even worse, sponsoring some kind of Islamist Spring (as was done against Mubarak) would be totally idiotic (as the West's support of the Islamist Spring was idiotic).

We should never forget that in the ME, the alternatives are often worse. For instance, I hate the house of Saud as much as the next guy, but people often forget that in Saudi Arabia the most organized and popular opposition to the regime does not come from some nice liberals, but from even crazier Islamists. So if the region can move towards reliable and anti Islamist despots like Sisi, that would be a huge improvement from the current state of affairs.

But the problem with the autocrats is that they're a stop-gap measure, at best! It's welding shut the boiler so steam won't get out.

If we're gonna hold our noses, close our eyes, and support tyrants; what's the endgame look like??

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But the problem with the autocrats is that they're a stop-gap measure, at best! It's welding shut the boiler so steam won't get out.

If we're gonna hold our noses, close our eyes, and support tyrants; what's the endgame look like??

Electing a would be tyrant of our own?

 

[Leoreth]

If we're gonna hold our noses, close our eyes, and support tyrants; what's the endgame look like??

Sell weapons, preferably to multiple sides.

 

[luiz]

But the problem with the autocrats is that they're a stop-gap measure, at best! It's welding shut the boiler so steam won't get out.

If we're gonna hold our noses, close our eyes, and support tyrants; what's the endgame look like??

That's not for us to figure out. Also, we shouldn't "support tyrants". We should support reliable allies that are committed to fighting extremism and terrorism. Like Sisi.

Unreliable tyrannies, like Saudi Arabia, should not be supported. Though they're still better than hostile tyrannies like Qatar.

 

[Cheetah]

Problem with tyrants, even the useful ones, is that it can always boil over. If the Shah had been less oppressive, we would probably be dealing with a democratic and strong Western ally right now (Not to mention if Mosaddegh hadn't been deposed).

Saudi Arabia is still continuing to pump out hate, and Sisi will continue to sit on a powder keg.

It is for us to figure out, or it will be left our children. Simply kicking the can down the road is a bad idea. Not the worst, I suppose, but still bad.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't think there is enough of a track record to really trust Sisi. Right now western interests strongly intersect with his, that's all.

 

[Cutlass]

Ultimately, the conflict here isn't about religion or extremism at all. That's all a smokescreen for a purely economic dispute.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...-with-qatar-has-22-year-history-rooted-in-gas

 

[Hrothbern]

My apologies if you took that as being directed at you personally, I was just making a general statement.

No offense
My statement was also general.
I see conflicts
and I see one or both sides using actions to terrorise ordinary people
If a state terrorises his own people in a systematic way, like Assad, he is also a terrorist.

 

[r16]

what an heartbreak ! The Brave New World under Qatari Dominion ends thus , with a whimper and not the slighest bang ? Everybody knows Al Crusading is a fancy thing , truly balanced in reportage , say , when Fox in the US also talks about the same subject . Though as not many people know how to speak Arabic , the true Al Jazeera is reported to be a lovely place where the Channel Scholar would be talking of killing the Shia , like every night . Yeah , Iran's food convoys on the high seas , to help the starving Qataris . How that can be happening , ı don't know . ı also don't know the guys' yearly GNP per capita . Is it 100 000 $ ? 140 000 ? 74 000 ? Though ı know why the fund that will conquer the world , the one the Party established by simply taking over so many assets of the long dead Turkish State , is supposed to be worth of 200 billions ; which equals the GNP of Qatar in 2013 ...



ah , glorious Qatar ... Our dear Sunni brothers ... Naturally , the Party thinks this is a coup against them . The Newly Rich and the Newly Smart , in a marriage by the blessings of Reverend Barack , starting a war here and there , with dollar bills to rapists provided by Doha and awesome spectacular military muscle by Ankara . Or something ... Indeed , something ; believing all the nonsense that has been sprouted over the last decade , the Turkish web scene supposedly has seen people wishing "good hunting" to the people of the Army of Petrol "based" over there , some 88 strong . Because the Saudis truly hate whom (they perceive to be their servants) talk out of turn , Ankara talks nothing of the sort . Indeed , some football dude , that Arda Turan of Barcelona , has attacked a 60 years old plus journalist on a plane , trying to punch and throttle him , cursing all the way through , too . Because as the greatest patriots or something some of them b_tched and asked for more money during the World or Euro Cup of 2016 and like didn't like feel playing ; and the journalist apparently writing one single piece of the requirements of being a professional football player , with not a single biting word , too . Turan sprouts stuff on honour and manhood ; hopefully to take 10 or 15 minutes of primetime TV News . You see , he didn't forget it at all , during that full year that has passed from the Cup and this ain't a media diversion . Terim , the manager , acts as the tough guy forever and ı have absolutely no doubts how come Turan was not thrown out of the plane , while in flight ; 10 to 15 minutes , man ...


which is actually far more heroic than anything the Qataris did ; which was totoally limited to hacking and saying the UAE Ambrassador also trashes BSS and like why he is not getting the same medicine . O , horrors with the guy listening to a 7 minute Trump speech and calls them 7 minutes wasted !


luckily the Germans were here to beg , for continued presence in Incirlik and were heroically shown the door . We will remember that they were told not to come in the first place , but whatever ... Evil Germans , when their seperatist loving MPs are specifically included in Parliamentary commissions to visit their troops in Incirlik solely to get Ankara to heroically complain , because if they are saluted by Turkish troops for whatever reasons , that's another 100 recruits for the seperatists , thinking their victory is finally around the corner and like 50 of them dead within the next two years , or you are absolutely free not to believe at that at all ... Yeah , evil Germans fail to accept to visit Konya , where there are surely German troops in those NATO Awacs planes and evil Germans fail to give another bragging point to the Party ...

 

[luiz]

Problem with tyrants, even the useful ones, is that it can always boil over. If the Shah had been less oppressive, we would probably be dealing with a democratic and strong Western ally right now (Not to mention if Mosaddegh hadn't been deposed).

Saudi Arabia is still continuing to pump out hate, and Sisi will continue to sit on a powder keg.

It is for us to figure out, or it will be left our children. Simply kicking the can down the road is a bad idea. Not the worst, I suppose, but still bad.

Autocracies / authoritarian régimes can actually last for decades or even centuries. There's no indication they're less stable than democracies. See the PRC. I think it's more stable than a lot of democracies out there.

The Shah is a great example. The only reason that progressive friend of the West fell was combination of lack of western support with, much worse, the West offering safe haven and protection to the murderous maniacs that created the abomination that is the Islamic Republic. Khomeini lived peacefully in Paris, all the while preaching hatred of the West and the overthrow of Iran's pro-Western government. He should have been deported back to Iran in a cage. Then we wouldn't see homosexuals hanged in cranes and women stoned to death for adultery.

I don't think there is enough of a track record to really trust Sisi. Right now western interests strongly intersect with his, that's all.

That's true. But I suggest the west should make an effort to keep those interests aligned, instead of going on preachy mode about democracy and human rights, imposing sanctions and etc. Again, the alternative to Sisi is not some Scandinavian social Democrat. It's the Muslim Brotherhood.

Ultimately, the conflict here isn't about religion or extremism at all. That's all a smokescreen for a purely economic dispute.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...-with-qatar-has-22-year-history-rooted-in-gas

Yes, nobody thinks Saudi Arabia has good intentions. But if the result is financially strangling the evil Qatari regime, that's a good thing.

I also think the rationale for Egypt is different. Qatar played a key role in the deposition of Mubarak and rise of the Muslim Brotherhood there. The Sisi regime naturally views them as dangerous enemies, and with reason.

 

[r16]

well , money is always important as that Bloomberg link might suggest but the thing is America calls the shots , despite the rhetoric that they do not . Qatar would be brought to its senses had Trump merely whispered so . The thing is the poster boy of Jihadism , you know that ISIL vermin , is getting defeated and all those guys need some smokescreen . ISIL lost only because their patrons were fighting with each other , not because the Kurds like defeated them . Much necessary , as they will need those Jihadist cadres as soon as possible to kill some more infidels , you know in a country that starts with a T .


though much depends on just who was behind the attacks in Iran . If Kurds , means Iran's turn for Democracy and just for the fun of it


ho HO HO Hell No

we Won't Go

just don't forget to hate me .

 

[Leoreth]

That's true. But I suggest the west should make an effort to keep those interests aligned, instead of going on preachy mode about democracy and human rights, imposing sanctions and etc. Again, the alternative to Sisi is not some Scandinavian social Democrat. It's the Muslim Brotherhood.

There are at least two false dichotomies in this statement. It's also not realpolitik to bend over backwards to "keep interests aligned". Either your interests align or they don't.