TT01: Beating Demigod

[ThinkTank]

I guess I'll turn it in an army then and leave it empty then until we have maces.

 

[templar_x]

i would like to see the first three leaders to be turned into armies, too. my prom rate sucked, but still the AIs without resources send lots of leader fodder so we can somehow count on more MGLs to come.

fully agree that we should go disconnect ragnar´s iron before he sees zerks. now that we´ve got 2 armies i would make peace with Iros and go after the Vikings very soon. the Vikes will require our attention for 20 turns at least, for we need to ship over to their islands, too. so imo we could ally the Iros into the fighting and draw some of Ragnar´s attention to them.

 

[templar_x]

I'm in turn 1 and we have our second MGL. In the IBT Persopolis completed the Great Wall. Basra has been razed. What to do with the MGL? We have several options I think: Heroic Epic, Foreign Palace (both 200s), and 2nd army. The first two are not so big on shields, and they are small wonders so not contested. I'm inclined to a 2nd army, but let me have your votes please.

congrats on the progress. i´m excited to see the post of your turns soon.

GW in Persepolis? that is more luck than we need. we´ll have another wonder soon, that is not too bad given our poor defenses in case a few viking maces come visit our core or in a just captured city... if we ever capture one.
shouldn´t help the Persians a bit, as Persepolis is >6 anyway... and then we´ll have it.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Excellent progress, another MGL, another army. Very good. I think MGL #4 could be used for the FP or Pentagon. Since we will be doing nearly constant warfare, there should be many shots at MGLs if we all are good leaderfishers. Handbuilding the HE and Pentagon are definite options, but probably not the FP, it would take too long to be beneficial, unless we build it right near our capital.

 

[ThinkTank]

That was definitely exciting. I've played, 11 turns since I was hoping to get Persepolis finally, but this failed. We did 45-11 in combat. We had horses for 1 IBT. The Persians distracted us heavily at Den Helder, at a certain moment I thought we would loose the city. This all meant we could not launch a big enough attack on Persepolis. Right now there are still at least 4 spears and a horse in Persepolis and our stack has 4 hits left, with the army redlined. The stack will likely survive but we need more mustle to take the city. We still have an empty army, I think we really need an second army right now so I suggest the next player fills it with swords.

The turnlog:

Spoiler :

0: 350 BC
All looks well. Check the tech situation, no real deals possible as the French want a fortune for feudalism.
Anyway, with the GL in Persepolis coming our way, now is not the time to buy expensive techs.
MM round. Looking good. The Hague is doing 11 shields, change that to 10, Middelburg gets the extra shield.
Change archer build in Amsterdam to sword.

IBT
Our lone sword up North is killed by an Iroquois archer. (0-1) We are facing 6 reg archers there now.
Persepolis completes the Great Wall. French start sun Tzu.
Down south, Den Helder is now facing 5 Persian archers, 4 reg and 1 vet.

1: 330 BC
No change is the situation.
Basra is size 8 so the GW has no effect on it. Cats go 2 out of 5. Army kills 2 defending spears but goes to 4 hp in the process. 3 swords kill remaining 2 defenders at the cost of 1. (4-2). We gain a cat and 3 slaves. Lauwersoog is founded near the ruins of Bactra.
At Den Helder, the cats score 3 of 3. An eSword kills an archer (5-2) and we get our second MGL. Stop to consult the team what to do with Willem Jansz.

Team goes for an army, which we leave empty for now, to form a mace army later. Move empty army towards Amsterdam, out of the combat zone.
N of Harlingen cats go 4 out of 4, 4 swords kill 3 Iro archers for 1 loss (8-3). Archer stack was on the forest. Cannot move the settler and give both the cats and the settler sufficient protection.

IBT
See a Viking MDI leave Copenhagen to the N. We complete 3 swords and a cat. Iros start Sun Tzu, Persia starts Knights Templar. Good they don't have iron.

2: 310 BC
Kill a loose Persian spear in pillaging position near Leiden. (9-3)
Den Helder: cats 3 of 3. Let the units heal, no further attacks.
N of Harlingen: cats 3 of 4, kill 2 Iro archers. (11-3)
French and Vikings have monotheism now, Iros have engineering.

IBT - No notes.

3: 290 BC
N of Harlingen: Iros reinforce with3 archers, there was only 1 left of the original 6. Cats go 3 of 4, kill 2, other swords must heal. (13-3)
Den Helder: we face a stack of 4 archers again. Cats go 2 of 3, swords kill 3. (16-3)

IBT
Persian stack builds up near Den Helder. We produce some spears as cheap MP and start on raxes in Breda and Leiden.
Persian horse kills a loose 3HP sword of ours on a mountain. (16-4)

4: 270 BC
Den Helder: 3 Persian units can attack, stack of additional 6 Persian units will reinforce next turn. Cats go 2 of 3, kill 1, 1 horse retreats. (17-4)
N of Harlingen: cats relined last Iro archer, sword kills it and promotes. 18-4.
We can now finally move the settler safely.
Units in Lauwersoog have healed now; move our small SoD towards Persepolis.

IBT
Scandinavia signs alliance with Persian against Portugese and declares on the Portugese.
Persian horse attacks Lauwersoog, retreats.

5: 250 BC
We found Enschede N of Harlingen. Move the stack there towards the Iro city of Tyendanaga.
We kill the horse near Lauwersoog. 19-4
Den Helder: the Persian stack is now 12 units. We have 4 cats, 4 vSwords, an eSpear and an eSword there. 2 of the swords have just arrived, so we have only 3 hits now. Meaning Persia will at least 9 hits on the IBT. We also have walls. I hesitate what to do, consult the CombatCalculator. Decide we will probably hold. Cats go 3 of 4, an eSword dies on a 4hp eHorse, but we kill 2 units. (21-5)
Move our small SoD towards Persepolis.

IBT
Persians attack at Den Helder and loose 6 archers, we lose a spear and a sword. 27-7

6: 230 BC
So we survived that. Our small SoD arrives at the gates of Persepolis.
Start rax in Den Helder (should have done that before).
At Den Helder, cats go 2 of 4, we kill 1 archer, other units need healing. 29-7

IBT
We produce 2 settlers. Utrecht riots. Vikings conquer Iro city of Tyendanaga in the N.

7: 210 BC
Form a colony on the horse E of Rotterdam; workers have been making a road to the hill next to it. We can use a couple of horses for safely dispatching loose enemy units.
At Den Helder, cats redline a lone Persian horse, but killing it would expose a lone unit, so we wait.
Siege of Persepolis, take 1. Cats go 2 of 6. Army kills 2 vSpears, goes to 6hp. 31-7. Then a sword dies on a vSpear. 31-8. Call of the attack. Is not likely that we can take Persepolis, keep it, and protect our cat stack.

IBT
Our 3 good cities produce swords and are switched to horses.
Ironically, later in the IT, Copenhagen gets a culture expansion and we lose our source of horses. But the build orders have already been set, so we will have 3 horses in a couple of turns.
A stack of 6 Iro archers approaches our stack at Enschede.

8: 190 BC
At Enschede, we engage the stack of 6 Iro archers. The cats go 2 of 4 and we kill 5 giving 3 promotions. 36-8
Siege of Persepolis, take 2. Cats go 1 of 6. Wait. Reinforcements can take over the defense of the cat stack next turn if we take the city then. If not, the reinforcements will take 2 turns before they can join the stack. Also the army will heal a bit.
Den Helder: cats go 2 of 4, we kill 2 units. 38-8

IBT - not much

9: 170 BC
Den Helder: cats go 4 of 4 on 2 units, we kill 1. 39-8
Siege of Persepolis, take 3. Army has healed to 6 hp. Cats go 2 of 6, showing 3 vSpears. Army kills 1, back to 6hp. 40-8. A sword kills a 3 hp reg spear but goes to 2 hp. Another sword redlines but kills a 3hp rSpear. 42-8. We have 2 more hits on at least 2 vSpears at 3 hp, but there may be any number of rSpears left. Wait.
At Enschede, cats go 2 of 4 and we kill 2 Iro archers. 44-8

IBT
A Persian eHorse attacks Lauwersoog and kills a spear. 44-9
French start Sistine.

10: 150 BC
Reinforce Lauwersoog with units form Den Helder. Persian units appear to moving from Den Helder to the E, in the direction of Lauwersoog and Persepolis.
Siege of Persepolis, take 4. Stack is reinforced with 4 swords (2 vet, 2 elite). Cats go 2 of 6, showing at least 3 vet spears. Our hit force this turn is a 1hp sword, a 2hp sword, a 4 hp sword, and a 6 hp army. We wait.

IBT
We produce 3 horses and a sword.

11: 130 BC
Siege of Persepolis, take 4. Cats go 4 of 6, revealing at least 4 vSpears. 9 hp army kills 1 but looses 8hp in the process, so is now 1 hp. 45-10. We then kill 2 3hp rSpears and loose 1 sword on a 3hp rSpear. I give up for this turnset. There are at least 3 more 3hp vSpears, and at least 1 rSpear. May the next player finish the job.

The save:

 

[templar_x]

That was definitely exciting. I've played, 11 turns since I was hoping to get Persepolis finally, but this failed. We did 45-11 in combat. We had horses for 1 IBT. The Persians distracted us heavily at Den Helder, at a certain moment I thought we would loose the city. This all meant we could not launch a big enough attack on Persepolis. Right now there are still at least 4 spears and a horse in Persepolis and our stack has 4 hits left, with the army redlined. The stack will likely survive but we need more mustle to take the city. We still have an empty army, I think we really need an second army right now so I suggest the next player fills it with swords. I'm afraid I dont have time for a full turnlog until Monday of Tuesday evening.

the army has only 1hp left?
that must have been a hell of a fight for Persepolis. obviously i was too optimistic about the time it requires to take the Persians´ capital.
however, i´m glad i left you those walls in Den Helder. i only saw the Persians bring up serious numbers of units against us there, too.
for going back to offensive, i support the idea of building the second army with swords NOW. it could attack and hopefully take Persepolis in 2 turns.
next player needs to mm the small cities afaics. good setting for the big ones though, imo!

 

[ThinkTank]

Turnlog added to post 305.

Assessment. Not a brilliant set but not a disastrous one either. In one way this game is different from emperor, and that is that the units keep coming. On emperor, in this phase of the game, normally if you have survived the initial battles and have taken 3 or 4 cities, the rest is history. Now, the units keep coming. What I probably did do wrong is let our forces be divided, basically we were addressing 3 fronts at a time: the north, Den Helder and Persepolis. We have not enough numbers for that. So we need another approach.

 

[Bucephalus]

Am I up?

I'll take a look tomorrow AM, and post a few thoughts.

 

[DWetzel]

It seems like a thought to peace with Iroquois tied to alliance vs persia. The Iroquois war was foisted on us since they got in the way of our assault, and we declared it. If we can do that, we can focus on persia all the way.

Where are they building Knight templar at? I would loooooooove to pick that up if we can time it well.

 

[ThinkTank]

Am I up?

Yes! Roster:

ThinkTank - just played
Bucephalus - UP
TheOverseer417 - on deck
DWetzel - warming up
templar_x - waiting
killerkid - will join in August

 

[templar_x]

tt, did you see the Persian MGL die when you razed Bactra? or did they already use or evacuate him?

 

[ThinkTank]

tt, did you see the Persian MGL die when you razed Bactra? or did they already use or evacuate him?

No, didn't see any Persian MGL.

 

[templar_x]

do you guys have an idea what the AI uses MGLs for in case it gets one? i have seen that happen only a few times altogether (AIs have few elites, to begin with) and most often was able to kill the MGL right afterwards.

for sure, normally AI doesn´t build an army from it. when i ONCE in all games saw one, i could hardly believe it. (i killed the army this very turn and told myself, ghosts DO NOT EXIST, ghosts DO NOT EXIST, ghosts DO NOT EXIST...)

but what else DO AIs know that they can build from it?
as they defenitely know how to use SGLs!

 

[Bucephalus]

do you guys have an idea what the AI uses MGLs for in case it gets one? i have seen that happen only a few times altogether (AIs have few elites, to begin with) and most often was able to kill the MGL right afterwards.

for sure, normally AI doesn´t build an army from it. when i ONCE in all games saw one, i could hardly believe it. (i killed the army this very turn and told myself, ghosts DO NOT EXIST, ghosts DO NOT EXIST, ghosts DO NOT EXIST...)

but what else DO AIs know that they can build from it?
as they defenitely know how to use SGLs!

The AI is able to use a MGL to rush a Wonder.

 

[DWetzel]

In looking at the save, I DEFINITELY think peace with the Iros combined with an alliance vs. Persia is the way to go. Right now, Hiawatha would give us four slaves and all 6 of his gold for peace and an alliance. Honestly, it's probably worth more than that but he hasn't anything else to give. Alternatively, we could get a deep discount on Feudalism--but that makes no sense as we're so close to GLib.

The units we are using up north (roughly, a half-dozen swords and 4 catapults--we'd want to leave one or two up there) are needed to really make the final push on Persia in the south. Unfortunately, those units are eight turns from the southern front at Den Helder. Even so, I think they will be needed there--if nothing else as a cleanup force for side towns like Hamadan, while the big stacks go for Perseopolis and Pasargarde.

My plan for Perseopolis would be as follows:

1. Rush barracks in Lauwerskoog.
2. Use a Lauwerskoog sword to dispatch the archer, and move the other two onto the rubble.
3. Move the army back to the rubble (covered by two swords), and next turn into the city.
4. Give the army a healing turn. The covering swords can join their brethren at Perseopolis.
5. Resume death-dealing once the army is healed, bombing away with cats the whole time. (I'd actually use the intervening catapult turns to maybe pillage some of the surrounding tiles, since we don't plan on keeping the city for long.)


With at least four spears in Perseopolis, I don't really think it's likely

 

[templar_x]

i think we´ll want to keep Persepolis if that is somehow feasible. its improvements can be of continuous value for us.
i´d abandon the city only if we encounter serious attacks at this front so that the flip risk really hurts us. however, i believe the Persians are gassed when they lose their capital.

 

[ThinkTank]

however, i believe the Persians are gassed when they lose their capital.

I'm not too sure about that but it does seem the numbers are decreasing.
Question is, have we been killing more Persians than they can build (I think yes) , and have we been able to compensate our losses (hardly). Good news is both Gordium (Sun Tzu) and Pasardgardae(KT) are on wonders. That will likely change soon; Sun Tzu will likely be built by some AI next turnset.

Right now our SoD is too small to take Persepolis and keep it. I'd say cancel the attack now, witdraw and let the units heal. In the mean time, kill all Persian units in sight, but safely. Reinforce stack with three more cats, three more swords (now in Lauwersoog already), and another army to be build now. Take Persepolis in 5-6 turns.

If we cannot use the stacks up north in our attack on Perspolis, I'd say peace with the Iros is not entirely needed.

Finally, I'd like the team to consider the connect-disconnect iron approach, building warriors in the IT, and upgrading them to swords in the turn. This could more than triple our production. IIRC we would need 20 slaves or 10 native workers to road the iron mountain in 1 turn.

 

[DWetzel]

How many slaves do we have right now? I hate to be a broken record, but the Iros have four "free" ones for us right now.

I do think we need the units from up north. To be more accurate, I think things would go MUCH faster if we had them. I am confident that we would eventually finish off Persia with what is left--but it would go MUCH more quickly, and I think that's a priority right now, letting us hold Perseopolis more securely.

My other issue is that being at war with the Iroquois right now doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything. We aren't going to devote any resources in the next turnset to making any headway there, and we don't have enough to do so right now. And they aren't giving us war happiness. So, basically, why are we at war with them? It will take at least one full turnset to take out Persia, and another one to reorganize and move back north. That's 20 turns. In the meanwhile, we get 4 slaves to play with.

I would suggest bringing down a settler (or using the one we have outside Perseopolis) to secure the horses north of Perseopolis. Without the save in front of me, I think we can do this and not impinge on Viking cultural borders by going CxC from Lauwerskoog. I'd like to build some horses ASAP and upgrade them to knights when we get GLib. (Have more than 1 civ we know started KT yet?) I think that's a better use of cash than warrior-sword upgrades.

 

[Bucephalus]

I think there is a lot of 'GLib tunnel-vision' going on here - we are pulling in 74gpt (should be 84, TT, 10% lux is not required), and can get Feudalism for 22gpt as part of a Peace deal with Iroqois; why wait when we have an Army just begging to be filled with MedInf, and Swords waiting to be upgraded? - I can start the next set with a MedInf Army and six or seven MedInf. This gives us a realistic chance of taking Persopolis in my set, something I believe unlikely if we have to wait for the Sword stack to heal. I would rather retreat it for the Army to heal and the Swords upgraded.

I agree with DWetzel that being at war with the Iroquois makes no sense since we are not getting war happiness; this deal makes peace with them a good bet, IMO. Persia looks more capable of maintaining a long term threat if we let them off the hook, so I suggest we put all our spare resources into crushing them first, and deal with Hiawatha afterwards.

 

[DWetzel]

Here's the question at hand, I think: is it worth trading 22 gpt, 6 gold, and 4 slaves for Feudalism right now--vs. sending a large enough force to take it and hold it for 1 turn? That's the choice in the Iro peace deal.

Me, I think I'd rather keep the +/- 850g (if you value workers at 100g) worth of goods, and hope to get Feudalism from the GLib. But it's close.