UK Politics VI - Will Britain Steir to Karmer Waters?

[EnglishEdward]

This is what the grundiad said, but it is quite long so shall not copy it all:

How the Tories pushed universities to the brink of disaster

Over the past 14 years, the Conservative dream of a free market in higher education has collided with the harsh reality of austerity and the cultural resentment of the radical right – driving some institutions close to bankruptcy

Thank you for posting that link.

I have read the article. I could argue over bits of it.

Most significantly it is hardly a free market if the state is funding it via the Student Loans Company.

More importantly, looking to the future, how will things change with the Labour government ?

 

[Zardnaar]

You said "current rates". Now you're saying it was "a while ago".

2023 was noted as being "unusually high" at around 685k. Prior to that (excluding the pandemic) it looked like migration was far, far less. So how long ago were we experiencing 700 - 800k?

Sources:

Long-term international migration, provisional - Office for National Statistics

Official statistics (in development) of UK international migration, year ending (YE) June 2012 to YE June 2023; estimates from YE December 2022 and YE June 2023 are provisional and will be updated when more complete data are available.

www.ons.gov.uk

Net migration to the UK - Migration Observatory

An overview of net migration in the UK – defined as the difference between immigration and emigration of people moving for at least a year.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

A year or two ago.

Idk what the ratio of hospitals to population ratio is.

Here they're overloaded. If you immigrated Here you're looking at 500-60k to buy a house and might not be able to get doctor appointments.

Is there any Dara showing foster and nurse ratio per 100k or million population?

If healthcare professionals numbers aren't keeping up with immigration there's a broken there despite rhetoric. Now look at teachers and other specialists. IDK what the UK numbers are but the NHS seems to be under strain.

So has the funding and Healthcare numbers kept up with immigration rates?

 

[Gorbles]

A year or two ago.

So immigration wasn't that high, and nobody said that we needed the number of hospitals you claimed - even our right-wing anti-immigrant xenophobic types. Glad we cleared that up.

So has the funding and Healthcare numbers kept up with immigration rates?

Funding hasn't kept up with anything irrespective of immigration. The Tories want the NHS gone. Current Labour aren't much better. Both are happy with increased privatisation.

 

[Zardnaar]

So immigration wasn't that high, and nobody said that we needed the number of hospitals you claimed - even our right-wing anti-immigrant xenophobic types. Glad we cleared that up.

Funding hasn't kept up with anything irrespective of immigration. The Tories want the NHS gone. Current Labour aren't much better. Both are happy with increased privatisation.

So you're conceding immigration is having a negative effect in already stressed systems?

 

[Samson]

So you're conceding immigration is having a negative effect in already stressed systems?

The NHS is completely reliant on immigration.

 

[Zardnaar]

The NHS is completely reliant on immigration.

Nice strawman always said you need some immigration.

Never claimed I want 0 immigration mire a sabe approach. Sone countries need mammoth levels of immigration.

It's absorbing them is the probem.

 

[Samson]

Nice strawman

Where is the strawman?

always said you need some immigration.

Never claimed I want 0 immigration mire a sabe approach. Sone countries need mammoth levels of immigration.

It's absorbing them is the probem.

I am saying immigration is more of a solution than a problem. The particular case you choose the highlight, the NHS, is a perfect example. The NHS is crumbling, it is a real problem. Tory anti-immigration law has made that worse not better. 19% of the NHS is non-British nationality, and the UK is the only country in the EU whose health service is heavily dependent on foreign clinical staff. That is not including the foreign born immigrants who have British nationality many of whom work in the NHS.

A very similar thing applies to home building, which is the other of the problems. Immigration is also a solution to the demographic issues you highlighted in your other thread.

 

[Zardnaar]

Where is the strawman?

I am saying immigration is more of a solution than a problem. The particular case you choose the highlight, the NHS, is a perfect example. The NHS is crumbling, it is a real problem. Tory anti-immigration law has made that worse not better. 19% of the NHS is non-British nationality, and the UK is the only country in the EU whose health service is heavily dependent on foreign clinical staff. That is not including the foreign born immigrants who have British nationality many of whom work in the NHS.

A very similar thing applies to home building, which is the other of the problems. Immigration is also a solution to the demographic issues you highlighted in your other thread.

I'm saying you let in specialists you need a and less visa for people you don't.

If you have big problems you can let in more people.

NHSis just one example I'm sure you could go through various other things as well eg teachers, builders etc.

Sone countries could cut immigration by 75% and be fine. Critical skills get visas.

 

[Samson]

I'm saying you let in specialists you need a d less visa fir people you don't.

If you have big problems you can let in more people.

It is not exactly specialists we need for the housing shortage, I am fairly sure that a large proportion of the channel migrants could and would work on a building site if given the chance.

 

[Zardnaar]

It is not exactly specialists we need for the housing shortage, I am fairly sure that a large proportion of the channel migrants could and would work on a building site if given the chance.

Qualified tradesman from reputable institutions.

And some labourers sure.

 

[Gorbles]

So you're conceding immigration is having a negative effect in already stressed systems?

I'll let your own words serve as the response:

Nice strawman

 

[Zardnaar]

I'll let your own words serve as the response:

Well you seemed to agree there was sne downsides to mass immigration. Did you miss the question mark?

 

[Gorbles]

Well you seemed to agree there was sne downsides to mass immigration.

Once again:

Nice strawman

 

[Zardnaar]

Once again:

Well I did ask you to clarify and you didn't.

 

[Gorbles]

Well I did ask you to clarify and you didn't.

No, you asked if I was conceding a point I never made based on things I never said.

You made an incorrect claim about immigration, and another incorrect claim about the hospitals required. You've provided zero evidence (whereas I have) and the second Samson replied to you you accused him of making a strawman argument. Which I found amazingly ironic considering how many words you're putting into the mouths of actual UK residents.

 

[Samson]

Qualified tradesman from reputable institutions.

If qualifications are getting in the way of homebuilding then that is the easiest problem to solve.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Accusing each other repeatedly of building straw men is not helpful for discussion. Thank you.

 

[Kyriakos]

The manner in which the Scottish independence issue fizzled out is really pitiful.
Removing Alex Salmond wasn't a good idea after all. Scotland, a divided society without even a country

 

[danjuno]

Will Ye No Come Back Again?

 

[Gorbles]

The manner in which the Scottish independence issue fizzled out is really pitiful.
Removing Alex Salmond wasn't a good idea after all. Scotland, a divided society without even a country

Nah, Salmond hitched himself to the right too much to be effective for the SNP at the time. Whether that remains the case is up in the air given how the SNP could plausibly shift to the right now.