UK politics - continuing into 2021

[AmazonQueen]

The problem of greedy employers firing and rehiring staff on worse terms has been about for a long time.

This was in part mitigated by TUPE, in part by Employment Tribunals, and in part by Trade Unions.

One can argue that the run down of the role of Employment tribunals has made the problem worse.

I notice an absence of claims that this would all have been prevented by EU law if the UK had remained formally in the EU.

I notice a lack of defence of the current governments position.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The problem of greedy employers firing and rehiring staff on worse terms has been about for a long time.

This was in part mitigated by TUPE, in part by Employment Tribunals, and in part by Trade Unions.

One can argue that the run down of the role of Employment tribunals has made the problem worse.

I notice an absence of claims that this would all have been prevented by EU law if the UK had remained formally in the EU.

I notice that this is the UK Politics thread, not the Brexit thread.
I also notice an inability to actually defend the policies of the current government.

 

[Gorbles]

And to be fair to the Conservatives, they have said they support in principle the idea. They just dont think legislation is the way to go.

And?

What does this even mean? To me it reads as "we want to sound like we support it but we're never going to do anything material to make it happen" (to be clear, I'm criticising the Tories here - not you or anyone else). That doesn't sound like they actually support it, in my opinion.

Besides, you're accusing the opposition of point scoring, i.e. believing the worst of their motive, but in "fairness" you're assuming the most charitable interpretation of the Conservative's (motives). That doesn't seem fair. Fair would be treating both parties with the same level of charity, no?

 

[sherbz]

Is that the same way that Johnson supports the Ministerial Code "in principle"?

I don't think so. In some ways at least a part of the tory party is traditional Liberal. So restrictions on business are a no go. Yes it's ideological. But so is thinking the state can solve all of societies problems (which it can't).

 

[EnglishEdward]

I also notice an inability to actually defend the policies of the current government.

It is not my job to defend the policies of the current UK government.

I didn't vote for them.

So I don't have to worry about my abilities to be stretched to breaking point in that respect.

 

[Gorbles]

It is not my job to defend the policies of the current UK government.

I didn't vote for them.

So I don't have to worry about my abilities to be stretched to breaking point in that respect.

So why bother mentioning Labour at all? Isn't that whataboutism? You're not normally a fan of folks doing that.

 

[Takhisis]

to be fair to the Conservatives, they have said they support in principle the idea.

This is like Gordocn Chen's advice in James Clavell's Gai-Jin: always ‘confidentially’ agree with a mandarin and then backstab him later.

But the current government hasn't done anything regarding this.

Preventing an act that would increase the load on employment tribunals, negating opposition action; isn't actually doing anything.

Hey, let's decriminalise killing, that way we'll finally unclog the criminal justice system.

Y'know, crimes can also be committed by omission.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Hey, let's decriminalise killing, that way we'll finally unclog the criminal justice system.

I don't think we need to resort to dictator death squads just yet.

 

[innonimatu]

So why bother mentioning Labour at all? Isn't that whataboutism? You're not normally a fan of folks doing that.

Perhaps the point is that your current opposition is as phony as your current government? Something you may not wish to believe also because it's so bad?
But if you don't acknowledge the reality, you can't change it.

 

[GinandTonic]

I don't think we need to resort to dictator death squads just yet.

Ahh, well now, a little walk in town and suddenly the old death squads look like quite a reasonable solution. First they came for Yeats' Wine lodge...

 

[EnglishEdward]

I presume that is your local pub ONO.

Been further thinking about the draft Act of Parliament.

Its main impact would be to increase the presence of trade unions in disputes
regarding firing and rehiring in conditions of crisis; as such I would expect the
conservative party to obstruct it on their habitual grounds of being anti trade union.

 

[Gorbles]

Perhaps the point is that your current opposition is as phony as your current government? Something you may not wish to believe also because it's so bad?
But if you don't acknowledge the reality, you can't change it.

Edward, despite liking your post, wasn't actually referring to the current opposition at all. If you're going to chip in, at least read up a bit first

 

[EnglishEdward]

There is opposition and Opposition.

It seems to me that Tony Blair and Keir Starmer and the Tories have much the same policy regarding powerful
employers and trade unions, so it doesn't matter whether considering the opposition to conservative policy (very little)
over 20 years OR the current Opposition in the current Parliament since Keir Starmer became LOLP in 2020.

The only time the Opposition looked like becoming opposition was when Jeremy Corbyn was LOLP.

 

[Gorbles]

There is opposition and Opposition.

It seems to me that Tony Blair and Keir Starmer and the Tories have much the same policy regarding powerful
employers and trade unions, so it doesn't matter whether considering the opposition to conservative policy (very little)
over 20 years OR the current Opposition in the current Parliament since Keir Starmer became LOLP in 2020.

The only time the Opposition looked like becoming opposition was when Jeremy Corbyn was LOLP.

None of which explains the whataboutism in you citing Blair's (and Brown's) Labour in response to criticism of the Conservatives.

Do you think AmazonQueen or I would suddenly change our minds if another party were responsible? I certainly wouldn't, and I'm speaking for them which is always risky, but I don't think AZ would either.

The Conservatives are in power. The very least we can do is criticise the choices they make while they wield that power. Otherwise why bother discussing politics at all?

The fact that you normally complain about people performing whataboutism is just a funny bonus, really.

 

[EnglishEdward]

The conservative party is merely part of a pro employer anti-trade union political establishment consensus.

And my reference to Labour is merely to demonstrate that context. Much the same is true for the Lib Dems.

As such opposition to Barry Gardiner's bill is more of a reflexive action than any particular policy choice.

And more generally it is the natural action of the government in power to oppose private members
bills because it sees its job as drafting bills and is jealous when anyone else starts doing that.

And trying to argue that discussion of Labour policy in a UK Politics thread is whataboutism is absurd.

 

[Gorbles]

And trying to argue that discussion of Labour policy in a UK Politics thread is whataboutism is absurd.

I didn't say discussion of Labour policy was. You're not fond of misquoting either, from memory.

My point was invoking some historic lack of passing said motion by Labour is whataboutism when the actual topic is people criticising the Conservatives here and now.

Like, I don't disagree with any of the points you just raised. The political consensus, and so on. But my point is that shouldn't mean we can't criticise these decisions when they're made regardless.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I can quite happy for AmazonQueen to criticise government default decisions.

 

[Samson]

I am shocked that I wholeheartedly agree with BoJo on an environmental issue:

Recycling plastic materials "doesn't work" and "is not the answer" to the threat of global climate change, Boris Johnson has said.
Answering children's questions ahead of the COP26 climate summit, the PM said reusing plastics "doesn't begin to address the problem".
Instead, he said, "we've all got to cut down our use of plastic".
​

I really think that we as a society focus far too much on the recycle R of the 5 R's: Reduce, Reuse, Repair, Rot, Recycle. There is a reason recycle is last, it should be the last resort rather than the first, and in many cases only measure we take.

 

[tjs282]

Recycling plastic materials "doesn't work" and "is not the answer" to the threat of global climate change, Boris Johnson has said.

While I do agree with you that recycling is certainly not the only thing that we should be doing, (you should be relieved to know that) BoJo is still wrong.

With respect to climate change (which is after all, primarily caused by releasing [fossil-based] hydrocarbons and CO2 into the atmosphere), recycling is still a far preferable plastic 'disposal' method compared to the otherwise likely alternatives (in the UK) of simple landfill or incineration.

 

[Samson]

While I do agree with you that recycling is certainly not the only thing that we should be doing, (you should be relieved to know that) BoJo is still wrong.

With respect to climate change (which is after all, primarily caused by releasing [fossil-based] hydrocarbons and CO2 into the atmosphere), recycling is still a far preferable plastic 'disposal' method compared to simple landfill or incineration (the otherwise likely defaults, still widespread in the UK).

The way I read his point is that reducing one's consumption of plastics is far preferable to recycling. Of course that can best be tackled from the top, and he is not doing anything to ensure that happens, but the point remains.