UK politics - continuing into 2021

[tjs282]

reducing one's consumption of plastics is far preferable to recycling

Yes, quite, but (I would imagine that) most people don't currently have a lot of options in that respect.

In our household of 2 adults and 2 children, I would estimate that about 80–90% of our plastic waste is from supermarket food packaging, with another 5–10% being washing-/ cleaning-product containers*. I would love to be able to reduce that, but short of the food industry/ supermarkets being incentivised otherwise, the only way for us to avoid producing that waste would be to make our own bread, pasta and cookies, also our own yoghurt and cheese (not bad ideas in themselves, but time-consuming), grow our own rice and lentils, and raise and slaughter our own pigs (for the relatively little salami and cubed bacon eaten). Our garden's not big enough for either of the latter...

*With the remainder consisting of other product packaging, plus the boys' outgrown-but-so-battered-as-to-be-unsellable sneakers, of which there have been multiple pairs over the past few years (puberty, what can you do...?).

 

[Samson]

Yes, quite, but (I would imagine that) most people don't currently have a lot of options in that respect.

In our household of 2 adults and 2 children, I would estimate that about 80–90% of our plastic waste is from supermarket food packaging, with another 5–10% being washing-/ cleaning-product containers*. I would love to be able to reduce that, but short of the food industry/ supermarkets being incentivised otherwise, the only way for us to avoid producing that waste would be to make our own bread, pasta and cookies, also our own yoghurt and cheese (not bad ideas in themselves, but time-consuming), grow our own rice and lentils, and raise and slaughter our own pigs (for the relatively little salami and cubed bacon eaten). Our garden's not big enough for either of the latter...

*With the remainder consisting of other product packaging, plus the boys' outgrown-but-so-battered-as-to-be-unsellable sneakers, of which there have been multiple pairs over the past few years (puberty, what can you do...?).

It is the same with me, but there are lots of little decisions we can make to reduce it though. In the before times I would shop at lidl rather than aldi as the former had a lot more of its fruit and veg as loose that you picked from a cardboard box, and the later had more packaged in plastic. If you get through enough yogurt to justify keeping an active ferment going that would seem to a fairly easy change, but of course depends on your particular situation.

The main point is that this really is something BoJo could change, whether with a carrot (eg. tax breaks for reducing plastics) or the stick (eg. legally enforced limits to plastic waste).

 

[EnglishEdward]

One of the impacts of Covid19 is that plastic waste has actually increased in the UK,
you know those swab samples people stick in their nose/throat which have a plastic stem.

 

[Gorbles]

Conservative councillors appear to be making petty bets on when others will raise schemes relevant to the livelihoods of their constituents.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "this isn't a good look".

"The reason why you heard collective groans was because some colleague had lost the sweepstake as to when the £20 Universal Credit would be mentioned"

Kent Council's practice under scrutiny as 'betting' on when poverty issues will be mentioned is revealed

https://t.co/iOm40v5pVT https://t.co/t7LY3dktHO

The source is Sky News on Twitter.

 

[Sofista]

Yes, quite, but (I would imagine that) most people don't currently have a lot of options in that respect.

In our household of 2 adults and 2 children, I would estimate that about 80–90% of our plastic waste is from supermarket food packaging, with another 5–10% being washing-/ cleaning-product containers*. I would love to be able to reduce that, but short of the food industry/ supermarkets being incentivised otherwise, the only way for us to avoid producing that waste would be to make our own bread, pasta and cookies, also our own yoghurt and cheese (not bad ideas in themselves, but time-consuming), grow our own rice and lentils, and raise and slaughter our own pigs (for the relatively little salami and cubed bacon eaten). Our garden's not big enough for either of the latter...

*With the remainder consisting of other product packaging, plus the boys' outgrown-but-so-battered-as-to-be-unsellable sneakers, of which there have been multiple pairs over the past few years (puberty, what can you do...?).

It can be reduced if those who want it decide to.
Here, even supermarket (fresh) bread comes in paper bags and some pasta makers have also switched to that. Cookies, well, you'd have to go to a real bakery to have them in a paper bag, but that could be rectified easily as well.

 

[Senethro]

Recycling of plastics as currently implemented is kind of a lie, or a greenwashing, intended to keep permission to keep using plastics for everything. Even sorted recycling in the UK is typically going in the landfill or the furnace, same as the rest of the refuse. This doesn't seem to be a temporary state of affairs as the recycling infrastructure is implemented, it seems to be the standard for the foreseeable future.

 

[AmazonQueen]

It can be reduced if those who want it decide to.
Here, even supermarket (fresh) bread comes in paper bags and some pasta makers have also switched to that. Cookies, well, you'd have to go to a real bakery to have them in a paper bag, but that could be rectified easily as well.

The annoying thing is supermarket cookies and doughnuts (as well as not being as nice) often come in those paper bags with little plastic windows.

 

[Zardnaar]

It can be reduced if those who want it decide to.
Here, even supermarket (fresh) bread comes in paper bags and some pasta makers have also switched to that. Cookies, well, you'd have to go to a real bakery to have them in a paper bag, but that could be rectified easily as well.

When I was a kid bread came in paper bags and milk and soda was glass bottles.

The milk bottles got reused.

 

[Snowygerry]

When I was a kid bread came in paper bags and milk and soda was glass bottles.

The milk bottles got reused.

We still do that here -

well the beer bottles at any rate, milk bottles not so much

Bread still comes in paper bags...

 

[sherbz]

When i lived in Scandinavia i noticed that charging a deposit for recyclables like bottles had the side effect of turning the homeless into mass recyclers. They used to go around parties in parks and the like and collect everyones rubbish to get the money for the bottles. Im torn between thinking the government are too cowardly, or too many people are too stupid in this country for reasons why its not happened yet. Remember the furore when they introduced 5 pence for a bag? I wonder what all those people who refused to pay and carted their shopping out in relays are doing now.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I suspect that the next time they went shopping they took a reusable bag or grimaced and paid up for a new one.

Very occasionally I end up unexpectedly shopping without a bag, and leave with bulging pockets like a shoplifter.

Anyway, is everybody here looking forward to the Chancellor's budget today?

 

[Kyriakos]

When i lived in Scandinavia i noticed that charging a deposit for recyclables like bottles had the side effect of turning the homeless into mass recyclers. They used to go around parties in parks and the like and collect everyones rubbish to get the money for the bottles. Im torn between thinking the government are too cowardly, or too many people are too stupid in this country for reasons why its not happened yet. Remember the furore when they introduced 5 pence for a bag? I wonder what all those people who refused to pay and carted their shopping out in relays are doing now.

Don't you need huge numbers of cans to make any money worth your while?
I recall there was such a soda-can collecting machine in a place I lived in Athens, and I never used it, since you had to feed it (iirc) a few tens of cans to pay you a euro.
Even if it was just ten cans, who in their right mind would be on the prowl to make (realistically) 10 euros for carrying 100 pieces of garbage?
Maybe if you are living on the streets (and it's only 10 cans, which I doubt it was).

 

[tjs282]

Don't you need huge numbers of cans to make any money worth your while?
I recall there was such a soda-can collecting machine in a place I lived in Athens, and I never used it, since you had to feed it (iirc) a few tens of cans to pay you a euro.
Even if it was just ten cans, who in their right mind would be on the prowl to make (realistically) 10 euros for carrying 100 pieces of garbage?
Maybe if you are living on the streets (and it's only 10 cans, which I doubt it was).

The standard deposit ("Pfand") across Germany, is 8 cents for a glass bottle (pretty much all beer-/juice-/water-bottles, and I think all single-shot schnapps-bottles, but generally not wine bottles), and 25 cents for most plastic bottles (beer, soft-drink, water, some juice-bottles). I think the rate for aluminium cans is also 25 cents, not sure (don't usually buy canned drinks myself).

To get a refund on the Pfand, there's no requirement to return anything to the exact same place it was bought: the only apparent restriction being that the collection-point stocks/sells products from that company, or has done so recently. So collecting bottles and cans can actually make some money here, for someone willing/desperate enough to work at it.

I see at least a couple of 'regulars' at the local bottle-bank, dumpster-diving for discarded Pfandflaschen: both have pushbikes/mopeds with trailers, and pole-hooks for targets beyond arm's length. People also frequently turn up at the local supermarket bottle-collector/crusher, toting those heavy-duty jumbo-size carrier-bags (e.g. from IKEA) full of plastic bottles; might be families with a month's worth of collection, but could also be people who've fished those bottles out of litter-bins.

 

[Zardnaar]

Don't you need huge numbers of cans to make any money worth your while?
I recall there was such a soda-can collecting machine in a place I lived in Athens, and I never used it, since you had to feed it (iirc) a few tens of cans to pay you a euro.
Even if it was just ten cans, who in their right mind would be on the prowl to make (realistically) 10 euros for carrying 100 pieces of garbage?
Maybe if you are living on the streets (and it's only 10 cans, which I doubt it was).

When I was a kid we got $1.20 (0.60-0.70 USD ) a kg for aluminum cans.

Not worth going out of your way with a few exceptions. Eg a birthday party like a 21st.

Good haul was $20-$40 bucks in late 80's as a kid that was heaps.

Soda bottles the large ones were recycled. I can't remember how much per bottle you paid but it was maybe 4-8 cents a bottle (1980's). My $2 a week pocket money would buy two comics aged 5 or 6 I think I got 50 cents which was a mixture (of candy).

They do large 750ml bottles of beer here still in beer crates (made of wood). You do swap a crate take in 12 of them and buy 12 new ones. If you don't have 12 empties the price is a lot more.

Crate of beer.
https://bigbarrel.co.nz/en/tui-swappa-crate-12x745ml-btls

If you are near a river or lake you can tie a rope to the crate and throw it in the water. Home made fridge.

Think the swap a crate is the last reusable glass bottles. Other glass bottles get recycled (we have recycling here for trash).

 

[Hrothbern]

On glass bottles
How efficient is cleaning them in the factory after returning them ?
Is it already costing less energy than recycling alu ?

On focus:
The focus in the media and here is now on the visble plastics, the PET bottles etc.
But AFAIK the main environmental damage, with on top the black swan risk, is coming from micro-fibres, a very big share from our clothes, from washing them.
Reducing washing frequency and replace one washing turn with hanging out in fresh air incl the morning dew woulds enormously decrease the micro fibre pollution.
Oh... using more natural fibres... well... uhhh... standard cotton is now farmed with huge amount of water and pesticides. Sheep etc cause their own CO2 footprint which transfers to the wool.
The amount of IP is increasing on tremendous pace in making new mass production fibres that have better mechanical properties and repel dirt etc. China has taken the lead there AFAIK.

On recycling:
When I was a kid... yes greybeard... every week the "schillenboer" (the "peel farmer", the waste food collector) would go through the streets: horse + wagon + ringing bell.
The potato peels, vegetable remains, bread crusts, etc, etc were collected and used as food for the local farmer's cows. This happened everywhere in urban NL.
We hadd a special peel basket, like everybody, and per week load you had to walk up and down your stairhouse, the 50 meters to the wagon with that sweet horse and that greybeard "pensioneer" of a farmer doing it for his successor's farm.
* NO considerations whether it paid back the efforts... It was considered a sinn, asocial, to let food go waste

Because many kids were member of a (football) club, and clubs were always short on money, we got in Dutch the saying: "ouwe kranten, liefdewerk" (old papers love effort).
So the kids fought off their own territory of streets and housenumbers to collect the old newspapers of everybody which were brought to the club house and from there sold for recycling. Every family was supposed to NOT throw away its old newspaper but nicely pile them up for the kids.
Not doing that was again considered asocial.
The saying meaning that when you do something which is as such not worth the effort in a material sense, you do it out of love (for your club).

The social and political climate in my youth was characterised by much less juicy fluff of social media world improvers because so much less was needed from our down to earth mentality.

 

[Ferocitus]

On glass bottles
How efficient is cleaning them in the factory after returning them ?

It's efficient and economical in a city like Adelaide, where there is a Coca bottling factory and a few
breweries. To bring them back here from country towns is obviously going to be less economical the
further they have to be transported by petrol or diesel fuelled trucks.

I mention Adelaide specifically because my wife pushed for deposits on bottles and cans when she was
a teenager and it was accepted by the Dunstan labour government, the first to do so in Australia.
(She got the idea from "environmentalists" while in California a couple of years earlier.)

 

[Hrothbern]

It's efficient and economical in a city like Adelaide, where there is a Coca bottling factory and a few
breweries. To bring them back here from country towns is obviously going to be less economical the
further they have to be transported by petrol or diesel fuelled trucks.

I mention Adelaide specifically because my wife pushed for deposits on bottles and cans when she was
a teenager and it was accepted by the Dunstan labour government, the first to do so in Australia.
(She got the idea from "environmentalists" while in California a couple of years earlier.)

Logistics again a major factor indeed.

What pops up in my mind now, only half-related is the huge potential of lotus layers for liquids.
A lotus layer is named so because water or dirt do not stick on a lotus (plant) leaf.
Part of my job had to do with technical nano layers and it is amazing what you can achieve trait wise, but also cost wise (hardly high end material usage on a cheap substrate only delivering mechanicals).
Lotus layers on glass is now spreading all over. With the inside of bottles lotussed, you get more fluid out of the bottle (all) AND you can easier clean it.
That IP on the next generation clothing fibres is besides higher strenght against breaking off micro-fibres also using the insights of these lotus layers: when your clothes are not sticky anymore for dirt (and micro skin flakes), they do not gather that much food anymore for "bad" bacteria who cause a bad smell.
=> less need for washing.

The silly or perhaps not so silly thing is that the so far ever increasing global population is forcing to have better techs, just like the Roman sewage system was needed.

When we have romantic "back to nature" philosophies against techs but DO NOT decrease our population to a "natural" amount and density, things will go maddenly wrong.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Apparently clothes shed most plastic micro-fibres in the first wash and then progressively less as they get older.

There is a lot of talk (French trials) about mandating better filters on domestic washing machines but anything effective is likely quite expensive.

So the thinking is to have the manufacturers prewash the clothes and collect the microfibers in special filters before selling them.

But that won't happen unless governments introduce a hefty tax on the sale of non pre-washed clothes.

 

[Samson]

Apparently clothes shed most plastic micro-fibres in the first wash and then progressively less as they get older.

There is a lot of talk (French trials) about mandating better filters on domestic washing machines but anything effective is likely quite expensive.

So the thinking is to have the manufacturers prewash the clothes and collect the microfibers in special filters before selling them.

But that won't happen unless governments introduce a hefty tax on the sale of non pre-washed clothes.

Just FYI, there are things designed to fix this issue, I have no idea if they work.

 

[Hrothbern]

Apparently clothes shed most plastic micro-fibres in the first wash and then progressively less as they get older.

There is a lot of talk (French trials) about mandating better filters on domestic washing machines but anything effective is likely quite expensive.

So the thinking is to have the manufacturers prewash the clothes and collect the microfibers in special filters before selling them.

But that won't happen unless governments introduce a hefty tax on the sale of non pre-washed clothes.

This will certainly help with the bigger sized micro fibres. But my guess is that the real small ones will be shedded never the less and continuously (ofc progressively less over time but still).
Getting lotus layers also means that the mechanical washing severity can be reduced, breaking less fibres during washing.
Washing machine manufacturers will for sure use this filtering as their next milk cow by gradually, but not too fast, offering "newly improved" washing machines over time.