UK Politics - Weeny, Weedy, Weaky

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You say this as if racism is just an opinion, like disagreeing about which Die Hard film is better. It's more like having a festering sore in the middle of your face that you refuse to have treated. It's not the duty of other people to polite tolerate the constant stream of pestilent ooze in the hope that enough gentle hints may reveal your better nature.

I think it is pretty safe to say, though, that racism is a symptom, not the internal disease. Though it can be ingrained (eg by parents/childhood associations), it often is just a coping mechanism. In some cases (maybe in most; can't estimate this) it seems to be an attempt to downplay one's own sense of inferiority, by at least attributing worse inferiority to others, due to something as bizarre as different race/country/ethnicity.
I recall (you may remember this story ^_^ ) a very ridiculous cab driver in Essex, who thought he was doing something very helpful for himself by telling me he thought Greece had jungles. Then again I was the one paying him to do a menial driving job.
 
On a personal level racism often is an opinion and one open for reconsideration. I’m not telling people exposed to racism to accept it. I’m saying it’s possible to get along on other issues.
My objection is that we shouldn't have to. If somebody has the saintly patience to tolerate racism, that's well and good, perhaps they can sway the racist for the better. But it can't be expected, still less demanded.

What's more, you rarely find a racist who isn't also, to some degree, a misogynist, homophobe, transphobe, anti-Semite, anti-Catholic, and anti-Muslim, and whatever other prejudices you can think to add to the pile. People rarely go "I can't stand those darkies, but the Jews are alright". People are rarely dead set against Muslamic ray guns, but right at home with the gay agenda. The barrier is unlikely to be looking past one mistaken belief, but looking past a whole world-view deeply structured by obscene and ridiculous beliefs. The more that bigots are allowed to tell you what they really think, the more quickly any middle ground falls away into a chasm.
 
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I agree, no one should have to, we should be free to define our personal friendships and relations. But if we call an unemployed man in Grimsby a racist for nothing more than wanting no more immigrants in the UK, are we much better? That’s also demeaning, unfair and hurtful. That’s what I want the left to stop doing because it helps nobody.
 
I agree, no one should have to, we should be free to define our personal friendships and relations. But if we call an unemployed man in Grimsby a racist for nothing more than wanting no more immigrants in the UK, are we much better? That’s also demeaning, unfair and hurtful. That’s what I want the left to stop doing because it helps nobody.
As indicated above, I would need some detail on this unemployed Grimsbian's opinions on women, gays, and black people before I am prepared to accept his views on immigration as an unfortunate expression of "economic anxiety".

Perhaps he will surprise me, and prove himself to be a beacon of tolerant, open-minded humanism, with whom I happen to share sincere disagreements on immigration policy. But it would be a surprise.
 
I agree, no one should have to, we should be free to define our personal friendships and relations. But if we call an unemployed man in Grimsby a racist for nothing more than wanting no more immigrants in the UK, are we much better? That’s also demeaning, unfair and hurtful. That’s what I want the left to stop doing because it helps nobody.

Lefts getting annihilated on immigration worldwide. You don't have to be rascist to want less if it especially if you live in places like London.

Labour here flipped the scribt and campaigned on less of it. All they have done is issue less visas. Can't build houses fast enough or schools or train doctors, teachers etc.

No one's expecting they go and hunt down immigrants and deport them. In the EU you can't control that?
 
So, what then? If a 'Red Wall' voter tells the Labour party they want to "Kick out the Pakistanis and Polish and Nigerians" should Labour go "Yes, we agree with you and will put strict immigration controls in our new manifesto"?

That's the problem the Democrats stateside seem to constantly run into, especially with more left-wing policies. They all poll extremely well, until the topic of immigration comes up.

Maybe? Nationalist Labour can just be a resurrection of Nationalist Liberals 160 odd years ago. Xenophobic Democracies or whatever nicer PR term to come up with may very well be the way to win on the left. There's no clause from a god that Leftism has to be open-armed globalist, or open-border-everything, now is there?
 
@Traitorfish It would be a surprise, I hear you. I understand your argument and it’s a fair one that I mostly agree with. But we have moved into a situation where we have people who are really exposed in society and who will flail their frustrations in the wrong directions. We all have black sheep in our families and understand it will be a struggle and concessions both ways. This is what the left needs to get back to – an understanding that we do not give up on troublesome people we do what we can to help them back into society.
 
Maybe? Nationalist Labour can just be a resurrection of Nationalist Liberals 160 odd years ago. Xenophobic Democracies or whatever nicer PR term to come up with may very well be the way to win on the left. There's no clause from a god that Leftism has to be open-armed globalist, or open-border-everything, now is there?

If they want to win elections it would be the easiest way to do it.

Traditional left is working class, trade unions that sort of thing.

They don't need to resort to xenophobia and racism. UKs an island controlling the border should be very easy.
 
Surely you must acknowledge that a Tory-led Brexit is shaping up to be a disaster, and the pro-Brexit/pro-Tory press treated a less disastrous Brexit, like a customs union, as betrayal. There is no way Labour -even a PLP comprised entirely of Corbyn supporters, would favor a hard Brexit.

I do believe that a tory-led brexit will be badly executed, one only has to look at what they've done so far (or rather, not done)...

But I do not believe that a hard brexit would be a disaster. A "hard brexit" must be on the cards while negotiating with the EU. May was incompetent, allowing held to be led instead of leading in the negotiations with the EU. Boris at least claimed he would go for a hard brexit if a deal could not be made. And the strategies of the other parties didn't even deserve to be called "strategies". The EU is in a far weaker position that most commentariat claims. In fact it seems that there is some panic already in several capitals in the continent over the result of the election. We'll see.
Boris being Boris he can mess it up. But don't be surprised if it turns out that he's able to extract further concessions from the EU and come out of the whole thing looking like a hero. Contrary to most comments I've been seeing from the people on the losing side of this election, I do not expect the tories to implode quickly, not to cause any acute economic or political crisis in the UK soon. Talk of secession is imo much exaggerated. And I'm willing to bet that brexit itself will not be any kind of economic catastrophe. The further harm they'll do will be feltt slowly, not suddenly: more commodification of daily life and pushing of people into a kind of debt bondage.

Do you want a retreat of the 80s with the SDP-Labour split, where both were consigned to electoral oblivion for over a decade? The 80s demonstrated clearly that Labour needs both their traditional industrial heartlands and the middle class professionals/reformists. When the reformists went over to the SDP, the Tories won with landslides. There's a similar pattern with Heath and Wilson. Corbyn was trying to hold the party together and failed. The anti-Tory vote was already being split, I doubt Labour would have emerged any better off if the anti Tory vote was being split n+1 ways. Corbyn was faced with a series of options ranging from bad to worse, rolled the dice, and it came up particularly badly.

Don't discount the fact that the tories are not a monolithic bloc either. And the possibility of different opposition parties focusing and winning on different constituencies.

One thing that seems clearer thanks to the overall UK result is that there will be a border in the Irish sea.

That is not at all clear. Boris has no obligation to try to pass the same deal again. The option of just leaving without any deal with the EU is open. Then negotiations restart on a clean slate, and without the RoI encumbering Germany, France, etc.

Mind you, I guess he will go along the path of lesser resistance, doing the deal that was already voted in the last drama. But he can go for no deal instead.
 
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@Zardnaar

The border is already controlled. Immigration is actually a pretty strigent process already. One of the Tory "fibs" (read as: flat out lies) was pushing the line that we needed it, the (politically unspoken) inference that we don't have it. This is what Cameron and May used a lot.

@innonimatu

It doesn't need to just be an "economic" catastrophe to be a catastrophe. But just for the record, in the event the NHS is further degraded and sold off, and warnings from current medical professionals about medical reserves come true, would you be willing to admit you were completely wrong, as UK citizens die?

I'm not exaggerating. This isn't something that even in a mirror universe where Boris is likeable, competent and good at negotiating could fix. In the event of any Brexit, medical supply chains will be disrupted. A lot of medicine is life-or-death for people (the biggest one is insulin, which is often unspoken, but a very serious thing to live with).
 
@Zardnaar

The border is already controlled. Immigration is actually a pretty strigent process already. One of the Tory "fibs" (read as: flat out lies) was pushing the line that we needed it, the (politically unspoken) inference that we don't have it. This is what Cameron and May used a lot.

Isn't it open borders in the EU though?
 
Isn't it open borders in the EU though?
We're not in the Schengen, nor have we ever been.

We've always been a special case in the EU, which just goes to show exactly how much of Brexit is nationalistic nonsense. We've already enjoyed advantages most European nations don't enjoy. But that wasn't good enough, apparently.
 
Maybe? Nationalist Labour can just be a resurrection of Nationalist Liberals 160 odd years ago. Xenophobic Democracies or whatever nicer PR term to come up with may very well be the way to win on the left. There's no clause from a god that Leftism has to be open-armed globalist, or open-border-everything, now is there?

The one sensible thing I recall Theresa May ever saying is that a citizen of the world is a citizen of nowhere. Think about what it means. The real democratic politics that can be done is in national arena, not not the international. International politics is the realm of diplomacy, the largest community within which there are organized democratic institutions. The internationalist current of the left keeps forgetting this, and failing because of it.

And being white, black or blue has nothing to do with this. Being (crucially, behaving as) a member of the national community has. The poor demanding that a government spends on the country's citizens and limit immigration has noting to do with racism and everything to do with the notions of inside and outside national community and the obligations towards it. To ignore this is complete folly.

Solidarity is good but the obligation to look after your own comes first. Else why should they look after you? Politics is a social contract...
 
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We need a radical new direction: Socialism But Only For White People. Think of the electability.

Socialism for citizens.

We keep hearing about more automation coming and less jobs but some people want more migration. Seems like an oxymoron for me.
There's also arguements that migrants do jobs that locals won't but if the migrants weren't there wouldn't they have to pay more until the locals would do those jobs?

Obviously you need some amount of migration but it's creating distress.

Trickle down doesn't work but you need to win elections. If you take care if the economic distress factors first IMHO the liberal/social side of things will fall into place.

Economic distress will drive people to extremism left or right IMHO.
 
Isn't it open borders in the EU though?
Open borders within the Single Market means that citsens from other member states can stay in or move to another member state, provided that they can provide for themselves. As examples:

1)
Any citisen can work in another country. They can also move there if they have a job and can support themselves. They can also move without having a job, but then have only three months to find a job, before they have to leave again.

As an example, during the financial crisis, there were quite a few Spaniards coming to Norway to look for work. Unfortunately they didn't know Norwegian, and most also didn't know English well enough and had the competency to get the jobs where just English would be acceptable. Those who didn't find a job in time, had to return to Spain. Except for the unfortunate job seekers who didn't find any jobs, there were no issues here, nobody complained about «open borders» or «freedom of movement», and the system worked as intended.

2)
Any citisen can own a house, or move to another country and live there even without a job, provided that they can prove that they can support themselves. Our health services cooperate, so health coverage from one member state pays for health services in another, so that's already taken care of. This is how a lot of people can move to, and live in another member states after retiring.

We would have to ask them, but I don't think that Spaniards are too unhappy about Norwegian retirees moving to Spain in the final years of their lives. Whenever they can't provide for themselves, Spain is free to make them leave.

3)
If they can't get a job, or can't [prove that they can] support themselves, they have to leave within three months (this rule also covers most short term vacations and such). But member states can also demand that people can prove that they have enough money to provide for themselves by requiring that they have a certain amount of money available per day they intend to stay. Norway has fallen back on this from time to time to stop some egregious examples of foreign Gypsies coming to be beggars. I think we've required a minimum of €100 in one's bank account per day one intends to stay.

----

And this is all within the Single Market and Schengen. The UK is also outside the Schengen zone, so they can be even stricter with who gets in. Namely through demanding visas or other pre-approved papers, unless one is a citsen from a visa-waived country.

In truth, the whole «Open borders» is almost a non-issue, unless a member state doesn't care to put in proper regulations for salaries, benefits, or work-rules. Even cabotage, which has been a major contention within the EU, has just recently been somewhat reformed, and now seems to be better protective of jobs and worker's rights.
 
Back when I worked in London I had an acquaintance who was quite racist especially about black people.
Nice guy otherwise.
Odd thing about him was he was pleasant to black people he met and liked those he knew but nothing I said could shake his conviction that black people in general (the ones he knew were always alright or different) were lazy, stupid, scroungers and probably criminals.
 
We need a radical new direction: Socialism But Only For White People. Think of the electability.
Hmm, too vague, might be taken to include Bulgarians or, heaven forfend, the Irish. Needs to be refined to "Socialism But Only For Our Kind Of White People".
 
Open borders within the Single Market means that citsens from other member states can stay in or move to another member state, provided that they can provide for themselves. As examples:

1)
Any citisen can work in another country. They can also move there if they have a job and can support themselves.

Do you consider people who earn so little they have to sleep on the streets as supporting themselves?
 
Back when I worked in London I had an acquaintance who was quite racist especially about black people.
Nice guy otherwise.
Odd thing about him was he was pleasant to black people he met and liked those he knew but nothing I said could shake his conviction that black people in general (the ones he knew were always alright or different) were lazy, stupid, scroungers and probably criminals.

The only solution to that is to tear down the walls compartmentalizing different communities along race. When they are systematically see to be like us racism evaporates. In this example, his prejudice was not an impediment to that process occurring. What is necessary, in terms of state intervention, is to counter the formation of ghettos, of separate communities, along race. Or indeed along many other artificial distinctions. It doesn't even require any kind of anti-racist policy, (with all the political controversy and division it causes), merely a policy of providing, enforcing, a standard of living that allows for the presently separate communities (including those naturally formed among large groups of immigrants) to mix in. Accessible basics of living (health care, education, habitation) equally for al the population goes a long way towards that.
Very, very often the formation of ghettos is due to the economic segregation of newcomers. Opening the doors to immigrants only to have them take on the role of lower strata of society is social poison: bereft of options they band together for support instead of spreading and intermingling, and being poor and apparently homogeneous group they are looked down upon by the rest of the population and associated with the traditionally dangerous traits of the poorer strata: they get described as opportunists (desperate...), thieves, amoral, uneducated, whatever...
You'll notice that the wealthy immigrants do not get lumped into the same category. Not even the russian oligarchs... it's (not solely but) to a large degree a class problem, especially in the cities where you can have immigrants prejudiced against other immigrants further down the ladder.
Ultimately there is always a limit to the number of immigrants that can enter without causing the creation of a poorly integrated and supported underclass.

And, risking the wrath of the woke left, I'm also saying the state should enforce whatever happens to be considered the most important social norms against newcomers who refuse to accept them. It is bad policy to, say, pass special laws legalizing polygamy among a small portion of the population just because you have an immigrant community from societies where it is practiced and who demand it. If some "new sub-community" makes special demands, are they really acceptable to the majority? Substitute polygamy for any number of other "cultural things". The so-called "multi-culturalism" was always very dangerous ground: it can create racism and other -isms where there was none. This is the other major part of the problem.

The two together are what really causes problems, and the two can be tackled only when acknowledged and discusses without taboos. Just demanding "cease your racism!" from random people will not do it.

I still wonder at how often the racism thing is raised in UK politics. Considering the number of foreigners the UK is already absorbing the problems it has were to be expected, imo it's actually not mishandling them as badly as some other european countries.
Edit: I guess that the issues come up in the UK precisely because it hosts so many immigrants inevitably pushed into the lower rungs of the economic scale. Having also some extremely wealthy ones buying prime property does nothing to endear "foreigners" in general to the citizens who in consequence feel priced out of the best spots. And those take it out on the foreigners they can reach and attack.
 
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