Ukraine and Russia may go to war

[Gelion]

So not actual answer to my question from the two oficial Putin agents in the forum, nothing to offer except nuclear blackmailing.

Considering what was said about Putin in this thread I'm not sure thats a compliment at all. I have specifically stated what I think would be in the best interest of Russia (and others), but your and some other members' fixation "on Mr Putin" make having a conversation a little difficult. Therefore

Case closed pretty much

@Yeekim, I'll get to your point when the timing permits. There were a number of reciprocal actions that explain why things went one or the other direction.

EDIT:

The conflict there has no religious background nor does it go back hundreds of years.

The conflict goes back quite a while, not focusing on the 1918-1920 war already mentioned, Ossetians used to raid Georgian territory in the XIX century. Here's a quote from General Golovin's report from 1838 (in Russian, google translate this fairly well):

некоторые осетинские общества, в числе коих и не признававшие над собою никакой власти, присылали поверенных от себя к прежнему начальству, а ныне и ко мне, прося дать им главного пристава, но только из русских чиновников, а отнюдь не из грузин

So the conflict does go back a while.

The place was considered to be part of Georgia by everyone before 2008.

Yes, officially. Do you know what else happened in 2008? Kosovo's declaration of independence. This gave South Ossetia a perfect excuse to seek their own official independence.

point me to anything that would show that after Russia brokered ceasefire in 1992 and sent in their peacekeepers, they made any kind of effort whatsoever to seek any kind of solution, so they could eventually withdraw from there?
Did Russia ever, during this time, invite those sides to sit down and say "nice, now that you've stopped shooting each other, let's figure out how we could peacefully restore this bit of Georgian territory to Georgian control, so we could go home"?
Because I am unable to find evidence of anything remotely like this ever happening.

After the civil war, in 1995, there were negotiations between both sides brokered by Russia and OSCE. The following year they signed a "Memorandum on Measures to Ensure Security and Strengthen Mutual Confidence" that set out some measures to be taken to "wither down" the conflict. In 2004 Georgia declared that they will "restore the territorial unity of the country" and tried to close down a border market that they thought was a center of contraband activity using several hundred military personnel. This provoked a military skirmish in 2004 which was hard to extinguish and which was followed by a 2004 demilitarisation treaty by both sides (signed in Sochi). (Georgian representative said even said that this was the first correct step in solving the conflict). In 2005 Georgia proposed South Ossetia autonomy within its country provided that Russian peacekeepers leave and EU and US will participate in the process. Ossetians refused (I wonder why?). Ossetians later in the year requested for their republic to be reunited with their Russian sister North Ossetian republic. The conflict was re-ignited on occasion ever since.

I think I've given a brief overview of the efforts that were made to restore peace between the two sides. As it was mentioned before restoring confidence between the sides is the first step towards re-uniting people that fought a war with each other.(this was done on two occasions). Short of a military victory of one side over the other as it was done in Bosnia and other places.

EDIT 2: Here's a google-translated list of events from the wikipedia:

Spoiler :

On October 30, 1995, the first Georgian-Ossetian meeting with the participation of representatives of Russia, North Ossetia and the OSCE took place in Tskhinvali. An agreement was reached to annul the decision of the Supreme Council of Georgia to liquidate the autonomy of South Ossetia and the decision of the Supreme Council of South Ossetia to secede from Georgia.
On April 17, 1996, at the Ossetian-Georgian negotiations in Tskhinvali, the text of the "Memorandum" was developed on the non-use of force, prevention of discrimination on ethnic grounds and the return of refugees.
On May 16, 1996, a Memorandum on Security Measures and Strengthening Mutual Confidence between the Parties to the Georgian-Ossetian Conflict was signed in Moscow.
On August 27, 1996, the first official meeting took place in Vladikavkaz between the Chairman of the Parliament of South Ossetia Ludvig Chibirov and the President of Georgia E. Shevardnadze. At the end of the meeting, Shevardnadze said that although “it’s too early to talk about autonomy,” he does not rule out the possibility of South Ossetia gaining the status of an autonomous republic with its own parliament and other governing structures in the future. In a joint statement following the meeting, it was stated that “the parties outlined ways for the further development of the processes of a full-scale settlement of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict, noting in this context the importance of a mutually acceptable resolution of the state and legal aspect of the settlement”
On March 4, 1997, "full-scale negotiations" began on a peaceful settlement between the Republic of South Ossetia and Georgia.
On December 22, 2000, a Russian-Georgian intergovernmental agreement was signed on cooperation in the restoration of the economy in the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict and the return of refugees.

I admit it was not easy to find.

 

[red_elk]

So everything went according to plan, right? Maintain a "peacekeeping"/occupation force until a chance presents itself to impose a unilateral military "solution".

No, Russian peacekeepers were preventing re-ignition of conflict there for almost two decades, risking their lives.
Until Georgia started war.

And since an unrecognized-by-anybody-but-Russia "country" of 50k people is not exactly viable

Why Estonians deserve to live in their own country, but Ossetians must remain part of Georgia?

 

[Samson]

Why Estonians deserve to live in their own country, but Ossetians must remain part of Georgia?

We had a thread about the justification of separatism recently didn't we? Was it this one, I am not sure.

 

[Snowygerry]

(...)
The conflict goes back quite a while, not focusing on the 1918-1920 war already mentioned, Ossetians used to raid Georgian territory in the XIX century. Here's a quote from General Golovin's report from 1838 (in Russian, google translate this fairly well):

The translation needs a bit of work there

...some Ossetian societies, among which they did not recognize any authority over themselves, sent their confidants from themselves to the former authorities, and now to me, asking to give them a chief bailiff, but only from Russian officials, and by no means from Georgians

Sounds like the Ossetians used the Russian army to liberate themselves from the Georgians - not unlike we here used a French army to run off the Dutch in
1830...

Would you say that is an accurate assessment ?

 

[Gelion]

The translation needs a bit of work there

"Some Ossetian communities, among those that did not recognize any authority above themselves, sent their confidants from themselves to the former authorities, and now to me [meaning General Golovin], asking to give them a chief bailiff, but only from Russian officials, and by no means from the Georgians"

There, I fixit google for you.

Sounds like the Ossetians used the Russian army to liberate themselves from the Georgians - not unlike we here used a French army to run off the Dutch in 1830...
Would you say that is an accurate assessment ?

Not at all, Ossetians merely wanted to be assigned Russian officials over them and not Georgian ones. While being a part of the Russian empire.

 

[Snowygerry]

And that was a language issue ?

 

[red_elk]

We had a thread about the justification of separatism recently didn't we? Was it this one, I am not sure.

I suspect that thread didn't result in agreement.

 

[Gelion]

And that was a language issue ?

What was an issue?

 

[red_elk]

And that was a language issue ?

Probably not, there are hundreds of local languages in Caucasus. It was more complicated.

Edit: Officially 60 languages and many dialects.

 

[Yeekim]

I admit it was not easy to find.

Well, thank you for finding it - I see there actually was some sort of a peace process in pre-Putin times...

Why Estonians deserve to live in their own country, but Ossetians must remain part of Georgia?

It is very noble of Russians to take up arms so that 50k Ossetians in Georgia could have their independence. What about 550k of Ossetians in Russia though?

 

[Gelion]

Well, thank you for finding it - I see there actually was some sort of a peace process in pre-Putin times...

Putin first came to power in 1999-2000 (demilitarisation talks happened in 2004), but I'm glad I was able to find some info for you .

It is very noble of Russians to take up arms so that 50k Ossetians in Georgia could have their independence. What about 550k of Ossetians in Russia though?

They are not opposed to being a part of Russia. Nor are they forced to adopt Georgian as their national language.

 

[red_elk]

It is very noble of Russians to take up arms so that 50k Ossetians in Georgia could have their independence. What about 550k of Ossetians in Russia though?

What about them?
Most of them live in Republic of Alania, subject of Russian Federation.
They have their constitution, parliament and Ossetian language has status of state language.
Anything else you want to know?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

What about them?
Most of them live in Republic of Alania, subject of Russian Federation.
All very They have their constitution, parliament and Ossetian language has status of state language.
Anything else you want to know?

Ohh, all very junky dori. And have the right to secede from Russian Federation too?
Because you know it would be, lets say, extremely hypocrite, if they don't have such right in Russia...

 

[Gelion]

if they don't have such right in Russia...

You're from Spain, right?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

You're from Spain, right?

Yep, and Spain is not invading France to give Catalans or Basques living there the right to secede.

So, the answer to my question is not, Russian republics have not right to secede from Russian Federation. (will have to answer my own questions in advance since you guy seem unable to do it...)

 

[Gelion]

Yep, and Spain is not invading France to give Catalans or Basques living there the right to secede.

Spain denied their own Catalonians the right to secede. Do you oppose that?

So, the answer to my question is not, Russian republics have not right to secede from Russian Federation. (will have to answer my own questions in advance since you guy seem unable to do it...)

Seeing how you "closed the case" a few posts back, I think you can do whatever you like.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Spain denied their own Catalonians the right to secede. Do you oppose that?

Not particularly, Spain can stablish its own territorial organisation because it is a sovereign country, the same as Russia, and particularly the same as GEORGIA (or Ukraine, or any other country in the world be it close or far away from Russian border)

Seeing how you "closed the case" a few posts back, I think you can do whatever you like.

You continue evading direct questions... Not very successfully thought. Another question: do you think Russia has more sovereignty than Ukraine or Georgia or any eastern European country?

 

[Snowygerry]

They are not opposed to being a part of Russia. Nor are they forced to adopt Georgian as their national language.

That's what I meant with a language issue - yes.

Language and enthnicity are the two main ways to forge a nation state.

 

[red_elk]

Ohh, all very junky dori. And have the right to secede from Russian Federation too?
Because you know it would be, lets say, extremely hypocrite, if they don't have such right in Russia...

No, they don't. If Russia would mistreat them same way as Georgians did though, I'd give them that right.
Give my best regards to Catalonians, btw.

 

[Gelion]

Not particularly, Spain can stablish its own territorial organisation because it is a sovereign country, the same as Russia, and particularly the same as GEORGIA (or Ukraine, or any other country in the world be it close or far away from Russian border)

I understand that as your support of the rights of a sovereign state to refuse independence to its parts. Its a position.

You continue evading direct questions... Not very successfully thought. Another question: do you think Russia has more sovereignty than Ukraine or Georgia or any eastern European country?

De jure no, de facto - yes.