FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
Just divide up Ukraine and sign a non-aggression pact already.
-
Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
Ukraine Crisis News Thread
- Thread starter ReindeerThistle
- Start date
- Status
Just divide up Ukraine and sign a non-aggression pact already.
I don't know, it sounds more like you are describing mainstream Russian perception of Western journalism. The media I personally follow have local correspondents with some actual knowledge of where they are stationed. The only bias I can discern is that they are critical. I don't know about you, but I personally like critical journalism.
In case you are unaware, the Russian position is quite well represented in Western media. I would say that goes without saying for any decent news medium.
In Russia, you mean? As their own position is that they are independent people's republics. At any rate this is besides the point. You were arguing that the intervention in Libya was, and in Syria is illegal. It was, and is, not.
As since the news involving Natalya Poklonskaya always get vivid reaction, here is the statement from her interview given today to journalists:
"The only weapon which doesn't have any other country in the world, which is impossible to sell, buy, give, or take away, - it is a strength of our spirit, fortitude of Russian multi-ethnic nation"
You forgot to mention she changed her hair again.
So what is this Russian position as it is presented in western media, may I know? Another thing is what I have noticed that even thought you represent sort of both positions there is no guarantee that most of your news isnt going to be biased and supportive of certain agenda. I open a topic invite one crazed out person to represent my rivals position and rest of the day I invite people only to support my position and then say it was totally balanced -- I have seen it in socalled serious media...
Yes, it comes as a big surprise to me but only since its done through criminal means. And since being this the case you shouldnt be surpised that when one deals with a global criminal you cant expect him to be the nice and stupid guy. In other words US wicked ways to keeps its superpower status are upsetting world balance and helping to create further disharmonious reactions.
Mr. Girkin\Strelkov, who had changed the role of War Hero talking head to the lamenting set-aside wannabie talking head keeping to make some interviews full of boasting and complaints safe in Moscow. Now he keep to insist what the whole stuff there was started solely due to him and his squad, as locals hadn't planned to do anything on their own, according to him. And that the Ukrainian military tried to solve the problem the city invaded by his forces with calm and cautious ways. Also he openly describe the late August counter-offensive as actions of "vacationeers" (both term and quote marks are original). Of course there is quite some boasting in all of it, as its probably should be painful to fell from a "hero" status to "lame duck" one up to accusations about treachery, so he is trying to get some shine on the own face recalling the glory days. But the fact is that now anyone denying the statements about the Russian invasion there, is actually accusing the (pro)Russian media sources and one of respected (pro)Russian field commanders in direct lie, with weird assumption what the deniers, who's located quite distant from the place, and relying only on biased 99% politically motivated government controlled media still have the better understanding about it than "hero of Sloviansk" himself. You hurt the field commander's feeling and his crystal shining inner world - and he strike back, framing the supporters then.
http://zavtra.ru/content/view/kto-tyi-strelok/ the article itself from the one the top chauvinistic Russian newspaper, for the sake of some autotranslate.
http://zavtra.ru/content/view/kto-tyi-strelok/ the article itself from the one the top chauvinistic Russian newspaper, for the sake of some autotranslate.
LamaGT
Emperor
Rebellions must have a specific organizer. I don't know if it was just him, but there had to be one. Otherwise you can't explain why Odessa or Kharkov never rebelled. He does probably exaggerate his role though.
The tourists are not much of a secret outside of official media.
Let me put it this way: overhelming majority is against you and you are almost without supporters. Any reasonable person would understand his mistake.
So finaly you indirectly admit whole incident is exported from Russia...
Actually even China plus India isnt an overwhelming majority -- I hope you got the point.
Huh, all of that is not a secret for a very long time, just now he framed his own followers, whom indeed had no problem to openly discuss it in very same terms on Russian, but lamenting about Russophobia, false biased claims etc in English in tries to "disprove" very the same things they are was happy about "without others ears". And now they had showed to be either gullible fools, or liars, by their own beloved hero. As he elegantly proved all the stuff they had to battle against as being "false biased and ungrounded accusations" for months. With either severe blow to some other statements from them (as being statements incoming from gullible fools, or liars) versus statements from their opponents (who's being able to reconstruct the events very clear and fast, even without the confession of Strelkov, thus showing the good ability to work with data in process) or to the need to start bashing the Strelkov himself and accuse them in treason, lie etc (some already happening process inside the chauvinist's rift), but still with accepting of being initially fooled by such malicious and disruptive person as he is. Of course we're all know what (pro)Russians actually had understand what was going on (except some really naive people, not presenting here i guess (as such "naivety" is close to illiteracy already)), just that is how its eventually ends. But with willful amnesia, it surely would be possible to keep insist later (say, during the trial, or so) about bias, ungrounded accusations etc. Surely it could work, just no point to expect anybody else to care about that ressentiment.
We can take the idea of "Rebellions must have a specific organizer" as a theory. But then we have to classify them on a scale from "entirely purely inner" to "directly openly staged from abroad". By some mystery twist, the (pro)Russians tends to try to pose any recent rebellions as close to "directly staged from abroad", despite being unable to bring anything reasonable to ground it in any given case, beside some words of support from some leaders of other countries and some fantasy articles from nut-ring sites. But still, they tend to see it as bad, intolerable thing. Ok. Now we have the confession of guy, who claim what he, leaded only by some own ideas, decided to went to other country, and capture the city there with military force, in hope to find some support there, and to obtain the direct help from his own country in process (with both goals reached, just not to a level he hoped for). Again, its not the first such attempt in modern history, but even Fascist Italy wasn't crazy enough to associate themselves with most deluded irredentists of that time, and wasn't happy with Fiume aventure. But again, its the most blatant way of "directly staging from abroad" stuff, and its also extremely shameful in the way of being constantly caught red-handed all the time (unlike the some mischievous West, supposedly doing the same all the time, and still managing to keep it secret the recent times, not being caught so miserably, despite being accused still). If you see such behavior as bad one - you need to bash Russia now, if not - forget about "West, staging the rebellions", or you have to lose any contingency in your words about.
Kharkov and Odessa are tried to "rebel" in subtle way, via provocations, as we know. That is one of point of Mr. Strelkov's bashing the organizers of those events, as they are failed badly, unable to find any local support, unlike he did in his captured city. But he had to do it with losing any secrecy in process, simply changing the "local rebellion" scheme to "invasion and search for local collaborators" instead, as being more (probably only) effective way (as its the one, that worked in Crimea by that time).
No doubt he's exaggerating his role, what else the talking head can do? I tried to say it as much clear as i was able too. But his confesses are matching some already existing evidence, nothing more.
It would be some great stuff if you will explain the deal about "tourists" to some people here, who still tend to miss that part. It was not a secret from the start, so im really puzzled why somebody is needing to voluntary ruin own credibility so miserable way still. As your English is much better than mine, and you realize who are they, and what they are doing there, it probably should work.
He also says that had they stayed and tried to defend Slovyansk, everything would've been over in a week, but after retreating to Donetsk, they managed to hold on until arrival of the "vacationeers", even though they clinged on by a hair for last few days.
Spoiler :
EDIT: Damn, that interview is insightful:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
No I dont really get the point it.
Oh, im not dared to pretend to translate the whole article, taking the time needed for it, and my weak language skills, just cherry-picked some juicy stuff, and left the source for the reading of anyone's interested.
upd. As far i can understand "retreating" is a wrong word here. "Relocating" or something, one cannot retreat to a place where one wasn't before.
Oh, I get it, I just picked out some better parts myself.
O.K. When you say overwhelming majority do you mean the goverments of NATO nations? Becouse the actual people of these countries may not think the same in spite of being daily brainwashed. I can say with confidence that majority of Czechs are against sanctions but the goverment acts different way.
Not surprise, as there is alotta of them to choose from.
Arent it was about media sources initially? As original statement was about "show me several instances where Western media report anything other than the "good Ukraine, bad Putler"" that so easy to accomplish, to extent of not bothering about at all (otherwise there would be literally no one outside Russia, who think such way, what is not matching the given facts, and you can just take almost any leftist\far-right source to get the desired POW), not about "actual people". And many people in Russia are against the sanctions imposed by Russian government on them too, despite of being daily brainwashed, and (beside the part, what some are indeed brainwashed enough, to not realize they got hurt not by West sanctions, but by Russian ones)? And don't forget, that till the last times, Russian official position about sanctions was them either being non-important at all, or being helpful and good to Russia. Why some Czech citizens should decide what is better to Mother Russia? Also he clearly used the word "reasonable" in the statement.
There is no such thing as "mainstream Russian perception". I'm aware about quality of Western journalism because I read articles from their media. There are a few journalists who have competence and objectivity enough to write decent quality articles about Russia (usually those who actually visited Russia beyond staying in Moscow for a couple of weeks), but overwhelming majority of them write stereotypical sensationalist junk.
If it was the case, people in this thread would know it, and I wouldn't need to ask them multiple times to read Putin's interview and stop writing nonsense about "Russian position".
In Novorossiya. Look, if you claim that "local opposition" has right to authorize bombing of their country, it applies not only to Libya, but also to Ukraine. Regardless of which position you take - either they are local Ukrainian opposition or authorities in independent state. If you so inclined to accept rebels position that they have independent Novorossiya, they have even more rights to ask third countries to help them in repelling Ukrainian aggression.
Bombing of Libya was illegal according to international law, because it wasn't authorized by UNSC resolution.
LamaGT
Emperor
No, it was imported from Ukraine. This whole conflict was at least 10 years in the making.
You should try to summarize your thoughts, walls of text are very hard to read.
He never framed his followers. The DPR is not a monolithic organization, there are factions and the "Strelkovites" are one of them. The "Oplot" and "Vostok" are indeed his rivals.
The rebellion, as everything, had many causes and was brewing for a long time. The Maidan was the catalyst, of course. Though not the only one.
Russia is of course behind the rebellion, but the only difference it makes is in the degree of its success. Its help doesn't make the rebellion fake, just as France's help doesn't make the American Revolutionary War any less of a "revolution", in our eyes (and the help was substantial, even more than what Russia is doing actually).
Kharkov and Odessa still have a decent amount of support for independence, and definitely very little support for the government. Eventually if Ukraine loses in Donetsk and Lugansk they will also join in.
Not only most Czechs but also both present and former Czech president do not see things as mainstreem media put them:
Strelkov's interview is indeed interesting, it contains some important information. Since the source is now apparently treated as reliable here, I would quote some other parts of it.
About shelling of Slavyansk and Nikolaevka by Ukrainian forces, massive civilian casualties:
About people who fought with him in Slavyansk - Ukrainians were considered them as Moscow mercenaries, while in reality 90% were local Donbass people and the other were volunteers from abroad.
"Когда украинская власть распадалась на глазах, в Крым постоянно прибывали делегаты из областей Новороссии, которые хотели повторить у себя то, что было в Крыму. Было ясное желание у всех продолжить процесс. Делегаты планировали у себя восстания и просили помощи."
Translation:
"When Ukrainian authority was collapsing, delegates from different Novorossiya regions were arriving in Crimea, they wanted to repeat Crimea events in their regions. Everyone had a clear desire to continue process. Delegates were planning uprising in their regions and were asking for help"
Either you have difficulties understanding Russian, or, perhaps simply lied.
About shelling of Slavyansk and Nikolaevka by Ukrainian forces, massive civilian casualties:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Well, the article you quoted says the opposite:
"Когда украинская власть распадалась на глазах, в Крым постоянно прибывали делегаты из областей Новороссии, которые хотели повторить у себя то, что было в Крыму. Было ясное желание у всех продолжить процесс. Делегаты планировали у себя восстания и просили помощи."
Translation:
"When Ukrainian authority was collapsing, delegates from different Novorossiya regions were arriving in Crimea, they wanted to repeat Crimea events in their regions. Everyone had a clear desire to continue process. Delegates were planning uprising in their regions and were asking for help"
Either you have difficulties understanding Russian, or, perhaps simply lied.
- Status
Similar threads
