Ukrainian Crisis thread 1.2

[Mechanicalsalvation]

So the German minister of foreign affairs has spoken against Ukraine membership in NATO plus he says it may take couple of generations for Ukraine to join EU(google translate):

Steinmeier in a weekend interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel spoke out against Ukraine's membership in the alliance. "Granted relationships Ukraine and NATO, but not its membership in the alliance," said the German politician. Economic and political modernization of Ukraine, according to him "project for several generations." In this context does not make sense to speculate on Ukraine's membership in the European Union, said Steinmeier.

Ukraine is still valid according to the Constitution, a neutral state and its membership in military pacts is unacceptable. New pro-European coalition that emerged from the recent parliamentary elections, but in the upcoming program declaration of membership in NATO refers to as one of its goals. President Petro Poroshenko said on Sunday that the country's relationship to NATO will not be decided by none other than the Ukrainian people in a referendum.

So what is this fighting and rocket all about? Maybe its time for a little diplomacy?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

French President François Hollande delayed indefinitely on Tuesday his decision on whether to deliver the first of two Mistral helicopter carriers ordered by Russia citing the "current situation" in eastern Ukraine.
http://www.france24.com/en/20141125...arship-russia-navy-business-contract-ukraine/

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

You can feel the love dripping:

Is this serious?!:

The second battle is against what German officials describe as a "massive propaganda campaign" by the Kremlin to convince Russia sympathizers in Germany and elsewhere in Europe to break with the hard line backed by Merkel and Washington.

The most public example of this was an interview Putin gave to German public television station ARD.

If Putins inteview is labeled propaganda then must be all of the Western media as well...

As part of this campaign, Kremlin-funded broadcaster RT -- formerly known as Russia Today -- launched a German language station this month to put across Moscow's view of the crisis.

German media have been complaining for months about their news sites being bombarded with pro-Russian comments. German security sources say they are part of an organized offensive steered from the Kremlin.

"Putin has tools to influence opinion within the EU," said Ulrich Speck of the Carnegie Europe thinktank. "He is doing his best to undermine the German narrative of the Ukraine crisis."

Ahh, that explains it. There is actually something called "German narative" since all the Teutons are born to think the same way....

Have fun reading: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/25/us-ukraine-crisis-germany-insight-idUSKCN0J91EN20141125

 

[Agent327]

So the German minister of foreign affairs has spoken against Ukraine membership in NATO plus he says it may take couple of generations for Ukraine to join EU(google translate):

Steinmeier in a weekend interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel spoke out against Ukraine's membership in the alliance. "Granted relationships Ukraine and NATO, but not its membership in the alliance," said the German politician. Economic and political modernization of Ukraine, according to him "project for several generations." In this context does not make sense to speculate on Ukraine's membership in the European Union, said Steinmeier.

Ukraine is still valid according to the Constitution, a neutral state and its membership in military pacts is unacceptable. New pro-European coalition that emerged from the recent parliamentary elections, but in the upcoming program declaration of membership in NATO refers to as one of its goals. President Petro Poroshenko said on Sunday that the country's relationship to NATO will not be decided by none other than the Ukrainian people in a referendum.

So what is this fighting and rocket all about? Maybe its time for a little diplomacy?

First, I would advize not using google translate. From the garbled quote it would appear Steinmeier is repeating the obvious: Ukraine can't join NATO, even if it wished, because of an ongoing territorial conflict with a neighbouring state.

If Putins inteview is labeled propaganda then must be all of the Western media as well...

I don't quite see why. From what I've seen of Putin's ARD interview he said nothing new, nor proposed any solution to the ongoing conflict. I'm not sure how that relates to all of the Western media needing to be labelled as propaganda. Propaganda is government inspired 'news'. There are plenty of independent Western media that do not fall within this category.

German media have been complaining for months about their news sites being bombarded with pro-Russian comments. German security sources say they are part of an organized offensive steered from the Kremlin.

"Putin has tools to influence opinion within the EU," said Ulrich Speck of the Carnegie Europe thinktank. "He is doing his best to undermine the German narrative of the Ukraine crisis."
Ahh, that explains it. There is actually something called "German narative" since all the Teutons are born to think the same way....

Really? 'The German narrative' would be the official version as presented by the German government. Just as 'the Russian narrative' would be the official version of events as presented by the Kremlin and official Russian news media. (Something which is not found in the West, by the way, apart from the semi-official BBC.)

What is the purpose of this thread, if I may ask? The OP doesn't say.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

First, I would advize not using google translate. From the garbled quote it would appear Steinmeier is repeating the obvious: Ukraine can't join NATO, even if it wished, because of an ongoing territorial conflict with a neighbouring state.

Its not only that. Steinmeier is actually saying no to Ukraines membership in NATO as such(it got garbled up) while he sees possibility for cooperation. Similarly to the earlier position of NATO towards Russia, I believe. Whats worse the EU membership is distance of decades now which almost crushes the aspirations of Maidan...

What is the purpose of this thread, if I may ask? The OP doesn't say.

The title does. We have no other thread dedicated to the subject atm.

 

[Borachio]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government is alarmed by President Petro Poroshenko’s plan to hold a referendum on Ukraine joining NATO, seeing it as a dead end that would only inflame tensions with Russia.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-26/merkel-said-to-reject-ukraine-s-nato-bid-over-russian-tensions.html

Also:

DONETSK, November 17. /TASS/. Leaders of the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) in eastern Ukraine describe the decision of Ukraine’s central authorities to stop paying pensions in the region as a “war crime.”

“By cancelling pensions for elderly people and thus condemning them to an existence of hunger, the Ukrainian authorities commit a war crime," Vice-Speaker of the DPR People’s Council (parliament) Denis Pushilin said, adding that "Ukraine does not only refuse to pay pensions, but also hampers us.”

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/760031

 

[FriendlyFire]

Head of LNR describes decree on socio-economic blockade of Donbas as act of genocide

Didnt Donbas vote for independence ?

 

[Agent327]

Its not only that. Steinmeier is actually saying no to Ukraines membership in NATO as such(it got garbled up) while he sees possibility for cooperation. Similarly to the earlier position of NATO towards Russia, I believe. Whats worse the EU membership is distance of decades now which almost crushes the aspirations of Maidan...

I was unaware Russia had any aspirations to join NATO. And as said, Ukraine being in a conflict with a neighbouring state prevents any NATo membership, referendum or no referendum. I'm not sure how EU membership would be decades away; it may or may ot be, but I can't tell that from the garbled quote.

DONETSK, November 17. /TASS/. Leaders of the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) in eastern Ukraine describe the decision of Ukraine’s central authorities to stop paying pensions in the region as a “war crime.”

“By cancelling pensions for elderly people and thus condemning them to an existence of hunger, the Ukrainian authorities commit a war crime," Vice-Speaker of the DPR People’s Council (parliament) Denis Pushilin said, adding that "Ukraine does not only refuse to pay pensions, but also hampers us.”

So not just a war crime, but hampering.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government is alarmed by President Petro Poroshenko’s plan to hold a referendum on Ukraine joining NATO, seeing it as a dead end that would only inflame tensions with Russia.

Not only that, but it's decidedly silly, as NATO membership isn't decided by referenda.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I was unaware Russia had any aspirations to join NATO. And as said, Ukraine being in a conflict with a neighbouring state prevents any NATo membership, referendum or no referendum. I'm not sure how EU membership would be decades away; it may or may ot be, but I can't tell that from the garbled quote.

Russia was in process of developing relations with NATO (including common exercises) which has been put at freeze now obviously and which may be offered to Ukraine instead of full fledged membership.

Not only that, but it's decidedly silly, as NATO membership isn't decided by referenda.

They can decide if they want to join (as potential joining would require change in Ukraines constitution). If their going to be accepted is althogether different matter and its independent of the popular vote.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Didnt Donbas vote for independence ?

Did Ukraine aknowledge that?

 

[Agent327]

Russia was in process of developing relations with NATO (including common exercises) which has been put at freeze now obviously and which may be offered to Ukraine instead of full fledged membership.

No, it may not. NATO (unlike Russia) can't hold military exercise in non-member states. And once again, Ukraine can't join NATO nor can NATO accept Ukraine as a member.

They can decide if they want to join (as potential joining would require change in Ukraines constitution). If their going to be accepted is althogether different matter and its independent of the popular vote.

I would agree with Merkel that it is simply a very bad idea and will lead to nothing - least of all NATO membership.

So, I gather from your postings this will be another 'Let's All Argue About Ukraine' thread?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Did Ukraine aknowledge that?

Lincoln sent huge amounts of Federal money to the Confederacy during the American civil war ?
Not sure if serious or this is a Russian Stalin cultural thing.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Lincoln sent huge amounts of Federal money to the Confederacy during the American civil war ?
Not sure if serious or this is a Russian Stalin cultural thing.

Its been noted that up till this point taxes has been payed to Kiev...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

No, it may not. NATO (unlike Russia) can't hold military exercise in non-member states. And once again, Ukraine can't join NATO nor can NATO accept Ukraine as a member.

I dont see why not.

So, I gather from your postings this will be another 'Let's All Argue About Ukraine' thread?

Lets have the news come in -- besides that I invite you to make it whatever you want...

 

[red_elk]

Kiev - a crowd of nationalists attempted to disrupt a concert of Ukrainian singer.
Correspondent of Russian LifeNews TV channel was attacked in the event, she was hit in her head and teargassed.


Link to video.

Graham Phillips, a British journalists was wounded by mortar shrapnel in Donetsk airport and hospitalized. He was working with rebels.

Spoiler :

Link to video.

 

[warpus]

Canada sending winter clothing to the Ukrainian army to help fight Russian aggression while it's cold and stuff.

Ottawa (AFP) - Canada's Defense Minister Rob Nicholson announced Wednesday the sending of winter coats, boots and gloves to dress 30,000 Ukrainian soldiers fighting pro-Moscow separatists in east Ukraine.

Source

 

[gay_Aleks]

They should send some winter clothes to the NATO soldiers being sent there.

 

[LamaGT]

"There's no fascism in Ukraine"

 

[Groff]

Spoiler :

"There's no fascism in Ukraine"

A few days ago USA, Canada and Ukraine where the only ones to oppose a UN resolution condemning neo-Nazism and calling for more measures against it.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/761115

 

[gay_Aleks]

"There's no fascism in Ukraine"

Look at the guy facepalming at the left corner. He's like "Jesus Christ, what a bunch of babies".

I think I can only sympathise.