Southern and Eastern parts, Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet republic and Odessa Soviet Republic were included into Ukrainian SSR in 1918, in agreement with RSFSR.
After 1922:
-
We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days. For more updates please see here.
Ukrainian Crisis thread 1.2
- Thread starter Mechanicalsalvation
- Start date
Southern and Eastern parts, Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet republic and Odessa Soviet Republic were included into Ukrainian SSR in 1918, in agreement with RSFSR.
After 1922:
civman110
Immortal
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2012
- Messages
- 2,111
Yes we in the west call it "Stalin time bombs"
This is what happens when you start displacing millions of ethnic population and then replace them with Ethnic Russians for racial reasons.
EDIT: War industry evacuations I dont begrudge the Russians for, all the rest though, well.
This is also 100% true.
Not really. It's more indicative of the lack of a common foreign policy of the EU.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
There is something wrong with that evolution map - Ukrainians did not claim Volhynia ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia#/media/File:Ukraine-Volhyn-en.png
Volhynia was much more ethnically Ukrainian than Eastern Galicia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia#/media/File:Ukraine-Volhyn-en.png
Volhynia was much more ethnically Ukrainian than Eastern Galicia.
LamaGT
Emperor
I did not assume it's due to language. I assumed it's due to ethnicity. I chose a map which shows native language because I think that it better resembles ethnicity than officially published Ukrainian census data for ethnicity (according to which in Donbass Ukrainians are majority of 57 - 58 percent):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#/media/File:Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainians.svg
I think that this data is falsified or even if not falsified then anyway it does not resemble the reality as well as the data on native tongue:
Probably people who speak Russian as their native tongue have a different understanding of what does it mean to be "ethnic Ukrainian" than people who speak Ukrainian as their native tongue. So these people (the former group) are ethnic Russians who only call themselves "Ukrainians".
However, most of people in Kiev do not use Russian as their native tongue, but they use it just like we use English on this forum.
The map I previously posted shows data on native language (mother tongue), not "lingua franca" like English in Wales or Russian in Ukraine.
They do not speak Russian as their native tongue, so as you wrote they are not Russian nationalists but Ukrainian nationalists.
And ethnic Russians are very close to majority there (but still less than half).
Fair enough, but even language doesn't tell the whole story. History and culture has a lot more to do with this than language.
It makes no sense for a city that speaks Ukrainian at home to speak Russian every time they're outside. I don't think you've ever been in Kiev to appreciate just how prevalent Russian speech is there. That doesn't stop them from being jingoists, however.
Russian speaking Ukrainian nationalists are something I never understood either, but they exist.
Don't know about this, they probably have other reasons not to claim it, or the map is incorrect in claimed area part.
Anyway, my point is that the territory of Soviet Ukraine in XX century spread far beyond original area of medieval Ukraine - by courtesy of Russian and Ukrainian communists.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
LamaGT said:
According to the map showing native Russian speakers, 30% in Kiev use Russian as native language. Add to this the fact that Russian was the most influential language of the Soviet Union and it explains why 60% Ukrainians speak Russian outside instead of 30% Russians speaking Ukrainian outside.
In the Middle Ages cities belonging to the Hanseatic League used German language, even when majority of their population were Non-Germans.
Verbose
Deity
Without the Reformation and the Bible translated into Swedish, odds are good the Swedes would today speak a weird kind of north German, rather than something Scandinavian. Same for the rest of Scandinavia.
The Scots and the Irish both majoritarily speak English, yet don't consider themselves as such.
The Scots and the Irish both majoritarily speak English, yet don't consider themselves as such.
I think in Kiev, most of people are bilingual - you can sometimes watch a situation when two persons speak to each other, one speaking in Ukrainian and another answering in Russian, both without having problems with that.
And probably, many Kievans claimed their mother tongue as Ukrainian, because they identify themselves as Ukrainians, but in daily life speak mostly in Russian.
And probably, many Kievans claimed their mother tongue as Ukrainian, because they identify themselves as Ukrainians, but in daily life speak mostly in Russian.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Verbose said:
Scots have voted against independence, so they rather don't have the same kind of strongly distinct identity as in the past.
And Ireland is a strange case. There emerged an independent Ireland, even though Ireland had been thoroughly Anglicized.
It is interesting how they preserved (or resurrected?) their Irish identity despite getting effectively assimilated before.
It is as if East Germans suddenly started to claim that they want to form an independent "Wendland" or something.
During Romanticism there was some kind of "Wendisch revival" cultural-political movement in Mecklenburg and Pomerania.
Here is what I found about that "Wendisch revival" movement during the Romanticism:
"(...) At the beginning of the 19th century, in North-Eastern Germany, the movement of intelligentsia ready to identify themselves as Slavs / Wends was strong. It was especially strong in Mecklenburg and Vorpommern. That movement was of course partially politically motivated - it was a form of resistance against land-grabbing plans of Prussia. Intelligentsia said: leave us alone, we are not the same Germans as you. (...)"
So there almost took place an emergence of Wendisch nationalism there.
Ironically, Prussian Germans also had a lot of Slavic & Baltic ancestry. So they kind of were "the same Germans" as Pomeranians:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-from-Silesia-Pomerania-Pomerelia-and-Prussia
Spoiler :
But Norwegians speak Norwegian. And perhaps that's why they did not want to be part of the same nation-state with Swedes:
http://historum.com/history/87342-m...-15-million-ethnic-germans-after-wwii-11.html
"(...) Unlike elsewhere in the world language has, for good or ill, been the foundation for building nations and constructing their polities in Central Europe. (...) But in Europa Centralis the ‘true’ nation can be only that which is composed from all the speakers of a single language. Ideally, all of them should be contained within a monolingual polity with only one official language – that is, none other but that of the nation’s. (...) This paradigm of Central Europe’s ideological fixation on the ethno-linguistic type of nationalism has resulted in a plethora of officially and uniquely monolingual nation-states from Scandinavia to Asia Minor, such as Norway, Estonia, Slovakia, Macedonia or Turkey. And the logic of this nationalism continues to keep politics and populations in this region enthralled. (...)"
Dissolution of the union between Sweden and Norway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_union_between_Norway_and_Sweden
Ahem. Half of the country allegedly took up arms because of a vague threat to the official status of Russian language.
Given nearly complete mutual intelligibility, I can very easily imagine Ukrainian majority defaulting to Russian, because large Russian minority wouldn't entertain the thought of learning to speak some strange aboriginal dialect.
EDIT: Actually, theres nothing for me to imagine - I've been to Kiev often enough.
Hmm, no, they took arms not because of language.
Because of language, they merely went to peaceful protest demonstrations in March 2014 and later, seized several administrative buildings.
What started to happen, what made them take up arms, pretty much explained by a priest in this video.
Link to video.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Ukrainian nationalists definitely wanted Volhynia - it was actually much more unambiguously Ukrainian than Eastern Galicia.
In Eastern Galicia East Slavic people were divided between several identities - such as "Ukrainian" and "Ruthenian" or "Rusyn":
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=536835
Verbose
Deity
Well, I beg to differ.
Part of my family is in Scotland.
That's emphatically not how Scots tend to see their relationship with England.
LamaGT
Emperor
Allegedly is the key word. You have a very cloudy mental image of this conflict.
It's not the status of the language that worries people, although it did become "important in its unimportance", it was the first thing the new "government" touched, and that riled up people.
This war was initiated by a chain of events starting from the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government, to the declaration of the ATO. At any point in this chain and even further (I'd say the point of no return was at Poroshenko's election) it could have been easily broken by Ukraine by some reconciliatory measures. Instead, it has been antagonizing the East with idiotic remarks and actions for all this time.
I'm not the only one who says this, as a huge surprise for me there is an adequate Kiev native who understands that with the current government any kind of reconciliation is impossible. I suggest you watch him, he's not the greatest speaker but he's fairly entertaining and most importantly, says all the right things (the only thing I disagree with him on is that the war is over, but we'll know for sure soon enough).
Link to video.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
And you all laughed at me when I suggested dividing a country into two and signing a non-aggression pact. Russia has promised eternal friendship
I have a feeling that it will all end in tears, just remember that Greece first collapsed in the 11th century due to its loans and debt which imploded its economy.
I have a feeling that it will all end in tears, just remember that Greece first collapsed in the 11th century due to its loans and debt which imploded its economy.
And you all laughed at me when I suggested dividing a country into two and signing a non-aggression pact. Russia has promised eternal friendship
I have a feeling that it will all end in tears, just remember that Greece first collapsed in the 11th century due to its loans and debt which imploded its economy.
Yes. Except there was no 'Greece' in the 11th century. Or quite a few centuries before or after.
^^^Thats only becouse it was anexed by Stalin...
How to achieve the truth on internet: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/russia-troll-factory-kremlin-cyber-army-comparisons
How to achieve the truth on internet: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/russia-troll-factory-kremlin-cyber-army-comparisons
So I just learned that US ambassy in Czechia has come up with a grants for non-profit organisations. Its against corruption, for transparency and "good ruling"... Really America? Democracy isnt enough? You are spending taxpayers money on improving good ruling in Czech republic? Should the Czechs do the same and support "good ruling" in US? The good ruling doctrine didnt went so well in Ukraine, right?
