Up for an expansive game?

[Rusten]

OK, assuming I'm up.

Plan:

Settle 1E (*duh*)
Build: worker-warrior
Tech: agri-BW or agri-AH

worker movement:
Farm corn -> mine pigs -> mine gold
or,
Farm corn -> mine gold -> mine pigs

Which do you prefer? My first thought is that the former wins out, but I may change my mind if I think about it some more. Pigs first also saves a few worker turns overall terrain/movement-wise.

Perhaps agri-AH is an alternative now that we have gold with the plan of: farm corn -> mine gold -> pasture pigs?
I'm starting to feel like this is the stronger approach.

scouting: I will mainly follow this guide - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314597 - and set up player #2 for the 'Duet of Forever'.
.....and also make sure we scout around the gold for city #2

Play length: 15-20 turns.

 

[Rusten]

So I mainly need input on tech path and worker action, I imagine we agree on the rest.

 

[Doshin]

My 2¢:

OK, assuming I'm up.

Plan:

Settle 1E (*duh*)
Build: worker-warrior
Tech: agri-BW or agri-AH

worker movement:
Farm corn -> mine pigs -> mine gold
or,
Farm corn -> mine gold -> mine pigs

Which do you prefer? My first thought is that the former wins out, but I may change my mind if I think about it some more. Pigs first also saves a few worker turns overall terrain/movement-wise.

Farm Corn ---> mine Pigs ---> mine Gold

Gold is arguably a stronger tile than mined Pigs, but we can work the Pigs one turn sooner due to the position of the Corn. Moreover, the earlier food/growth and hammers will lead to a quicker Settler and second Worker, so my feeling is that this will also lead to more overall, due to the faster empire set-up.

Perhaps agri-AH is an alternative now that we have gold with the plan of: farm corn -> mine gold -> pasture pigs?
I'm starting to feel like this is the stronger approach.

Mining the Pigs is less efficient than building a Pasture (~5 Worker turns lost), but the value of AH isn't apparent to me yet.

I think a great deal depends on scouting. If we reveal another good AH resource, then this path becomes more appealing.

However, let's say that skipping Animal Husbandry means that we can build a Granary 6–7 turns sooner. The Granary will provide as much as the Pasture, and the from the mined hill will recuperate the cost of the Granary after 10 turns (besides, a necessary build sooner rather than later). With 8 from the Pigs, Gold, and city tile, it shouldn't take more than 4 turns (perhaps even 3) to build a Granary after a Settler.

Tech path:

Agriculture ----> TW ----> Pottery ----> Archery
Agriculture ----> BW ----> Archery/TW ----> Pottery​

Going to Pottery before Archery is only worth considering if the Gold is super-charging our research quickly enough.

And if we see another Pig or Cow, perhaps go to AH after Agriculture?

 

[kossin]

1N and make a mega city in the BCs

 

[Rusten]

Farm Corn ---> mine Pigs ---> mine Gold

Gold is arguably a stronger tile than mined Pigs, but we can work the Pigs one turn sooner due to the position of the Corn. Moreover, the earlier food/growth and hammers will lead to a quicker Settler and second Worker, so my feeling is that this will also lead to more overall, due to the faster empire set-up.

This was my thinking as well, I'd agree with that.

However, let's say that skipping Animal Husbandry means that we can build a Granary 6–7 turns sooner. The Granary will provide as much as the Pasture, and the from the mined hill will recuperate the cost of the Granary after 10 turns (besides, a necessary build sooner rather than later). With 8 from the Pigs, Gold, and city tile, it shouldn't take more than 4 turns (perhaps even 3) to build a Granary after a Settler.

granaries. I forgot that we get it for 30 hammers here -- what a trait!!
This should edge it towards early pottery indeed.

Tech path:

Agriculture ----> TW ----> Pottery ----> Archery
Agriculture ----> BW ----> Archery/TW ----> Pottery​

Going to Pottery before Archery is only worth considering if the Gold is super-charging our research quickly enough.

And if we see another Pig or Cow, perhaps go to AH after Agriculture?

If I notice a lot of AH resources I'll pause after agriculture is in.

Do you really think skipping BW could be a good idea? Seems fishy to me, won't there be need for chopping in between here?

I'd be inclined to go Agri -> bw -> archery (if no good copper) -> TW -> pottery now.

1N and make a mega city in the BCs

Few things in civ are as satisfying as 15+ cities in the BCs.

 

[Doshin]

Do you really think skipping BW could be a good idea? Seems fishy to me, won't there be need for chopping in between here?

I'd be inclined to go Agri -> bw -> archery (if no good copper) -> TW -> pottery now.

Whenever I research BW, I don't find Copper. But sure, we could go to BW. I'd be fine with that.

I think it depends on what you want to build in the capital after the first Settler. If we have one Worker and you don't build a second (in favor of a Warrior/Archer/Granary/Settler/whatever), will the first Worker have time to chop? This is an open question, not rhetorical.

Presumably the 5 resources will take ~25 Worker turns to improve, and these will take priority. The second Gold can also receive a road. I'm not sure how the timing works out.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Rusten: sure, worldbuilder is my thing

For now, i am strongly in favor of agri ->bw-> TW (or archery) -> pottery... if we don't come accross some more sheeps/cows/etc

I agree with farm -> mine on pigs -> gold also.
Not sure we can squeeze a chop into the settler build, but that would be my first Doshin. I assume second build will be a warrior and then another one or two before settler?

That being said, I still find 1N tempting like kossin (nevermind me)

@Folket, pigswill: are u fine with the plan? any more input?

 

[pigswill]

I'm wondering about agric>AH for two reasons. First is that if we settle 1E and mine pigs we only have one good food source, if we're looking at a 4:2 whip cycle then 2 food sources is the superior. Second is a bit longer term, if we're not building seige then having horses becomes a priority and we can't grab them if we don't know where they are.

 

[vranasm]

checking for horses makes a lot of sense given the variant

the only drawback is if you don't see any you have to go archery

but I remember Rusten being advocate of going archery in noncompetitive games as default strategy anyway...

will going archery potentially delay victory by couple turns? of course it will, but does it mean going archery will make the game unwinnable? most certainly not...

 

[Rusten]

I'm wondering about agric>AH for two reasons. First is that if we settle 1E and mine pigs we only have one good food source, if we're looking at a 4:2 whip cycle then 2 food sources is the superior. Second is a bit longer term, if we're not building seige then having horses becomes a priority and we can't grab them if we don't know where they are.

The pigs won't stay mined forever, it's only for the starting turns. Once we start whipping vigorously with a granary and all we will get a pasture up ASAP. AH would be next on the list after pottery I imagine, we will know where the horses are soon enough.

Regarding archery vs checking for horses pre-settler:

Chariots are not very reliable against barbarians. You can only safely engage 2v1 -- the odds are not good enough for 1v1, and you don't even get defensive bonuses. It also takes a while to get going as you need to hook it up. Copper OTOH, if we do have it, really fends off the barbarians. While there *is* time to check for both here given research speed with gold it would most likely slow down our city settling as we'd need to wait for protectors. Better to go for the safe archers.

This is not SGOTM and we need to get this moving so I will play at least up until agriculture now.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

will going archery potentially delay victory by couple turns? of course it will, but does it mean going archery will make the game unwinnable? most certainly not...

As Rusten said, charriots aren't good for defense against barbies. copper in fat cross or in the third ring or archers are the way to go imo. Ofc you can get lucky (you are up on night to), but I wouldn't take that risk in a SG

 

[Rusten]

Complications.... we have cows as well!

Spoiler :

What now gents?

Also, it was not a forested plains hill! Bye-Bye synergy.
Note to self: only fog gaze ingame from now on

 

[Rusten]

I think this might make agri -> ah -> archery better, and delay BW until after pottery.

This does not change agriculture first however, so I will go ahead and play those turns anyway and we can take it from there. Expect an update about the first 10 turns shortly.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

U can still play till agri and scout a bit (rice or hut, ur call)...
edit: xpost

 

[Rusten]

Ridiculous... simply ridiculous.

3920 BC:
I scout around the rice at first and find another hut which reveals a map:

Spoiler :

*geez*
Another gold tile and grassland pigs for it to boot!

3880 BC:
Capital borders pop and what do you know, more gold with food to boot.

Spoiler :

3800 BC:
We meet our first AI -- Isabella (scout at the village/hut)

3760 BC:
I find another hut while scouting the north, and what do you know....

Spoiler :

I am at a loss for words.

3600 BC::
Stopped here.
Agriculture is in (as well as BW ).
Isabella is close to the east.
Was unfortunate to lose scout to a lion. Which is good because that means this could still be reality.

Spoiler :

Screenshot of the north:

Spoiler :

Where to go from here (except to buy a lottery ticket)?

 

[vranasm]

could use some numbers for our lottery too if you're at it... last month some weirdo won 400 millions CZK... I would be satisfied with ~10 mil CZK... so you don't have to put much effort in the numbers...


btw a reason why i usually don't play with huts... instead of getting 3x barb wars/archers you got 2 maps and BW... and let's not talk about being lucky to even get 3 huts...

 

[pomthom]

This is really a nice start, I think Attacko would have re-rolled to get a more challenging one.

Wet Rice + Gold seems a very juicy candidate for city 2 obviously. Although with no fresh water, 1E of Rice looks like a good support city for the cap. But CRE allows funky openings so we'll see what the scouting reveals!

EDIT: xpost with Rusten's update

 

[pomthom]

Read Rusten's update...

LOL

 

[pomthom]

Maybe it's smarter to settle in Isabella's direction and grab the Eastern dry Rice (1W to share Gold and brown Cows with Cap)

Wouldn't Attacko rename his cap or something?

 

[pigswill]

Wot? No BFC copper? This is not the day to buy a lottery ticket!!