Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
"If racism is found, then the study must not have properly controlled for racism."
US Supreme Court Upholds Michigan anti-Affirmative Action Law
- Thread starter onejayhawk
- Start date
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
...Eh?
So this is a concession that luiz is losing the argument?
Yes, they did. But they never faced the severity of discrimination that blacks did. And, more to the point, the discrimination against them ended. It hasn't ended against blacks.
The only groups that have suffered nearly as much as blacks in the US is the Indians. And they're not doing so hot either.
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
In this case, Justice Sotomayor is the one shouting racism.
You used quotation marks. Who were you quoting?
Life under government control can be harsh.
J
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
Discrimination against Asians hasn't ended. Far from the truth.
In fact, one of the main issues Asian-Americans face is the fact that people think that discriminatino against Asians has ended, that Asian-Americans, as the model minority, have proven themselves to be well-adjusted and assimilated. In truth, discrimination against Asian-Americans tends to be subtler, so it can be harder to spot - but it still hurts and is still pretty annoying at times.
Here's an excerpt from an article concerning the issue (the author is a UC sociologist, for what it's worth):
And here's a short article about a Cornell psychology study on the subtle forms of discrimination Asian-Americans face:
In fact, I'd argue that Asians might have it worse in the media. Asian males are always asexual, nerdy and geeky overachievers; Asian females are exotic beauties. Certainly, there are negative stereotypes that often pop up for other groups, but the difference is frankly it's hard for me to think of any depiction of Asians other than the negative stereotypes - I can still, for instance, think of more positive (or perhaps more "neutral") depictions of Africans. Racism towards Asians in the media doesn't generate controversy the way that it might for other groups. There was an SNL skit from a couple of years ago that dealt with this pretty well - it was during the height of the "Linsanity" surrounding Jeremy Lin, and the skit revolved around sports commentators making puns and other seemingly inoffensive but racist remarks towards Asians, but the moment one of them makes a similar remark concerning an African-American basketball player, he gets lampooned by his (hypocritical) colleages.
These media portrayals have had a definite effect on how people deal with us Asian-Americans - Asian-American males tend to have a difficult time hooking up with non-Asian females, while Asian-American females suffer the opposite, being idealized to the point of being creepy by non-Asian males (which, in turn, puts non-Asian males who genuinely love their Asian-American girlfriends/wives/etc. in a difficult position sometimes when their love is questioned, but that's another matter).
I've suffered this sort of subtler discrimination myself, but the fact that it was more subtle made it harder for me to grasp at first. For example a couple of years ago at the place I interned there was a girl (white or hispanic, I forgot), about my age, who also interned there. Whenever we talked about things, she would always make assumptions that I had no life, that I lacked social skills, etc., negative stereotypes associated with girls. In fact one time while we were talking with another intern she asked us something like "So what are your plans for the weekend? Doing anything interesting?' and immediately after she turned to me and said something like "Oh wait of course you won't be doing anything" and the other guy (hispanic, I think) glanced awkwardly at me as if he understood how hurtful her words were, but otherwise didn't say much. She also occasionally explained why she never wanted to date Asian guys, and her reasons were pretty much based off the media stereotypes, i.e. too focused on academics, too effeminate, not social enough, etc.
Asians have, and still are, ultimately perceived as an outsider. Even African-Americans, to some extent, are considered part of America - perhaps not perceived as a positive part of it, but a part of it nevertheless, at least more than Asians. We're always the people who can't pronounce English, who have a strange and mystical Oriental culture, whatever. The "Ching Chong Ling Long" incident from a couple of years back shows these perceptions are still alive and kicking.
I suppose this rant is somewhat off topic, and a bit of a rant, but I figured I'd get it off my chest. I want to emphasize that I am not saying Asians suffer equal or more discrimination than blacks or Hispanics or native Americans for instance (side note: I find it a bit amusing that native Americans are lumped together with Asians in questionnaires and surveys sometimes). I just want to say that Asian-Americans are far from doing well, as I mentioned in an earlier post while some studies have shown that Asian-Americans do well, the problem with these studies is that they don't consider Asian-Americans as a rather diverse group, and when you start breaking things down the situation gets much more complicated.
(I'd also think that Jewish-American probably still have their own issues to deal with, but I won't comment here since I don't think I am qualified to comment. (For what it's worth, though, I grew up in an area with a lot of Jews and Asians.))
And luiz (and Thomas and Scalia in their concurrence)
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
A point. It is not rare both sides are crying the same thing. I am reminded of Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address.
Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. ...
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
He was speaking of the war with bullets, but the struggle will continue as long as there are men living. This is a fight with no winners, only survivors.
J
What SS-18 ICBM said?onejayhawk said:
SS-18 ICBM said:
Kaiserguard said:
Most East Asians in the United States arrived after the passage of Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments in 1968. In large part because Asians were barred from migrating to the US between 1888 and 1952. There was a slight relaxation of the rules in 1952 with the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. But because of how the act was structured, it was still all but impossible for Asians to migrate. It wasn't until 1968 that East Asians could migrate into the US.
Keep in mind that this was also after the passage of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts which outlawed discrimination on the basis of race. While I accept that Asians were discriminated against, the sorts of discrimination faced by post-1968 Asian migrants and their descendants were not at all comparable to the endemic official discrimination that was part and parcel of being black from... before the foundation of the Republic to 1968. Most African Americans are descendants of people who faced official discrimination... but few Asians are.
So while there were lynchings of Chinese, most Chinese in America at present have no link to those individuals except nationality and/or race. So for most Asian Americans it's rather more a painful footnote in American history rather than something that they've lived through or have knowledge at first or second off. (That's not to say that some Chinese can't do this). African Americans on the other hand are nearly always the lineal descendants of the sorts of people who got lynched. It's still possible for African Americans over a certain age to remember lynchings first-hand and I'd imagine that most African Americans have had these sorts of stories related to them by people who lived through these events or were passing on stories they themselves had heard from people who did. It's rather more real for them. You can extrapolate this particular experience to African American exposure to discrimination via segregation official and otherwise more generally.
I'll also grant that Jews faced discrimination but the sorts of discrimination meted out against them were rather more like those meted out against other white outsider groups like Irish Catholics. Over-time the level of discrimination ebbed too. So while it was painful and obnoxious... it was still rather short of being murdered at the hands of white mobs. Blacks with a few exceptions weren't the beneficiaries of this sort of gradual reduction in discrimination.
I'd trade for this stereotype tomorrow. It's so much better than the "violent, angry Maori males and females" stereotype that's common in Antipodean media.cybrxkhan said:
cybrxkhan said:
This would make me so jealous. Because, you know, being Maori and getting an internship is hard. More seriously, I'd much rather prefer this than... being asked whether your a gang member, into drugs or done time. I've literally had people ask me if I could hook them up. Yours might at a stretch make it hard to mix with the fair sex... mine marks me as undesirable minority. As a result, Masada usually just misdirects about his origins and points out his mother was born in Singapore.
Bugfatty300
Buddha Squirrel
Asian-American females are idealized by the media? Yeah, I don't know 'bout that.
Asian-American discrimination in college admission is also (possibly) still a thing http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...he-ivy-league-fair-to-asian-americans/266538/
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
I think you're kind of missing my point... my point wasn't that Asian discrimination is worse or better than other minorities per se, it's that it still exists, and still definitely has an effect on people, in counter to Cutlass' statement that discrimination against Asians is "over".
Also, while the severity of discrimination directed against Asians might not be as bad as the ones against Maori (I don't know how bad it is, so I'll take your word for it), blacks, nativ Americans, or what have you, it still makes us undesirable in some way or another. Asians are always a perpetual, convenient "other", always foreigners. Other than the STEM fields, I'm not sure whether Asians are really prospering in other fields. And, again, while the discrimination may not be as massive or widespread as against, say, blacks, it's there and in contrast to the somewhat more personal examples I outlined above, there are enough examples of how Asian-Americans can and do suffer violence too - the murder of Vincent Chan in 1982, the fact that Korean-Americans suffered almost half of the property damage during the LA Riots, the abuse that US soldier Danny Chen suffered from his non-Chinese fellow soldiers (from a few years ago, I believe), and the assaults and even murders of South Asians (because they look like terrorists in the minds of some).
Again, I want to emphasize I'm not saying that Asian-Americans have it the worst. My point was simply to counter Cutlass' statement that Asian-American discrimination has "ended". And even then frankly I'd say implying that Asian-American discrimination isn't worth looking at because it isn't as bad as discrimination against, say, blacks is like saying a man who lost his arm shouldn't deserve medical treatment because only people who lost two or more limbs should deserve medical treatment.
Apparently yes. Not the most academic source per se, but here is one perspective on the issue from an Asian-American woman: http://groupthink.jezebel.com/asian-women-arent-your-oriental-submissive-china-dol-1464199143
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
CELTICEMPIRE
Zulu Conqueror
I believe that race is a social construct, and has no place in college admissions.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
What about that other social construct called "racism" which has disadvantaged some people? Good thoughts aren't what gets rid of that.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Merit is a social construct.
I'm a social construct!
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
The words "social" and "construct" are social constructs. Social constructs are social constructs! 
anic:
anic:Spoiler :
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