[RD] War in Gaza: News Thread

[Gorbles]

Neither does Hamas. That's the thing people need to understand, and why the peace talks stalled.

As per all the news linked here, incorrect. Israel has repeatedly stalled or submitted new demands. Hamas have reportedly made repeated concessions.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Apparently Netanyahu wants a ceasefire where no fire is actually ceased

https://twitter.com/x/status/1810056554999062759

It's like some posters don't read anything on this thread

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

The Israeli government doesn't want a ceasefire, and will do everything to prevent one.

That's the point; it's amazing how Israel straight up doesn't even pretend to be negotiating in good faith and still some people twists themselves into knots to put the blame on Hamas

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Like this is a passage I read just today:

Efforts to negotiate a ceasefire through mediators, ongoing for months, are once again faltering. On Monday, Israel and Hamas traded blame over the lack of progress.

Hamas wants a ceasefire agreement to end the war in Gaza, while Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the conflict will stop only once Hamas is defeated. There are also disagreements over how a deal would be implemented.

So Hamas wants a ceasefire where the war is ended (so radical) and Israel doesn't want one. So how does Israel blame Hamas for lack of progress in negotiations when Netanyahu says they have no interest in a ceasefire?

The second paragraph admits as much so what's the point of the first one?

 

[Kyriakos]

The amount of assassinations and bombings of third countries is rather too damn high, no?

 

[Lexicus]

Neither does Hamas. That's the thing people need to understand, and why the peace talks stalled.

Are you joking? The 'peace talks' have stalled because Israel insists on continuing the war after the hostages are returned. In other words, Israel does not want a real ceasefire. Ultimately this is probably because Netanyahu understands that his political career is likely to be finished if the war actually ends.

If there was any sort of progress during these talks, maybe. But it has stalled. Maybe his replacement will be more willing to make some compromises. And if not, maybe HIS replacement...and on and on until Israel finds someone willing to accept their terms.

Disgusting talk you would condemn rightly if it was coming from a Russian talking about Zelenskyy.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

If there was any sort of progress during these talks, maybe. But it has stalled. Maybe [Zelensky's] replacement will be more willing to make some compromises. And if not, maybe HIS replacement...and on and on until Russia finds someone willing to accept their terms.



Neither does the US. That's the thing people need to understand, and why the peace talks stalled. US wants Ukrainians sacrificed to rally the rest of European countries against Russia.

 

[Sarin]

Are you joking? The 'peace talks' have stalled because Israel insists on continuing the war after the hostages are returned. In other words, Israel does not want a real ceasefire. Ultimately this is probably because Netanyahu understands that his political career is likely to be finished if the war actually ends.

Disgusting talk you would condemn rightly if it was coming from a Russian talking about Zelenskyy.

One of the reasons why peace talks stalled is that Israel wants some kind of guarantee that Oct.7 won't happen again. Hamas, whose ultimate goal is destruction of Israel, as stated in its charter, is unwilling to give any such guarantee.

I don't endorse it, but I can look at the situation from Israeli perspective. From their standpoint, either destruction of Hamas or its transformation into more benign entity will do. Netanyahu is going full genocidal, but even your average Israeli wants some security guarantees that just aren't coming.

@Bonyduck Campersang false equivalence. History, background, goals, behaviour of the involved parties are all so different that you can't equivocate them this way.

But do you know what you can? Average Ukrainian wants guarantee that there won't be another war once Russia recovers. Putin is unwilling to give any such guarantee, in fact all the proposals from Russian side were just about giving Russia a breather while cutting Ukraine off from western aid. Average Israeli wants guarantee that Oct.7 or the recent missile attack and similar stuff won't happen again. Hamas is unwilling to give any such guarantee.

 

[GeneralZIft]

One of the reasons why peace talks stalled is that Israel wants some kind of guarantee that Oct.7 won't happen again. Hamas, whose ultimate goal is destruction of Israel, as stated in its charter, is unwilling to give any such guarantee.

I don't endorse it, but I can look at the situation from Israeli perspective. From their standpoint, either destruction of Hamas or its transformation into more benign entity will do. Netanyahu is going full genocidal, but even your average Israeli wants some security guarantees that just aren't coming.

@Bonyduck Campersang false equivalence. History, background, goals, behaviour of the involved parties are all so different that you can't equivocate them this way.

But do you know what you can? Average Ukrainian wants guarantee that there won't be another war once Russia recovers. Putin is unwilling to give any such guarantee, in fact all the proposals from Russian side were just about giving Russia a breather while cutting Ukraine off from western aid. Average Israeli wants guarantee that Oct.7 or the recent missile attack and similar stuff won't happen again. Hamas is unwilling to give any such guarantee.

There is no guarantee that Israel will stop their colonisation and apartheid of the Palestinian people.
Their occupation lasted some half century, now the spotlight has finally put this case in front of the world, to accept a Ceasefire for anything other than the 2 Nation Solution is doing a DISSERVICE to the Palestinian people, who AT least deserve the houses they were ousted from.

At least, the Palestinians deserve free trade, free access to their coast, free movement, food, water and other essential rights that are not controlled by their occupiers

The reason Oct7 happened in the first place is because you took thousands of people and shoved them in an open air prison and closed off all the escapes, feed them like hamsters and slowly overtook their land until eventually there are no Palestinians left at all.

 

[Gorbles]

One of the reasons why peace talks stalled is that Israel wants some kind of guarantee that Oct.7 won't happen again.

They also want free reign to continue fighting. In a ceasefire.

I can also "look at the situation from an Israeli perspective", and conclude that they are the ones stalling the ceasefire talks. Saying that you can look at it from an Israeli perspective and that they want "security guarantees" isn't a counterargument to "Israel are stalling ceasefire talks". Both can be true, and both are true. The salient point is that it isn't actually on Hamas. It's on Israel (and to a lesser extent the international community - particularly the US given their relative influence compared to most other countries - to lean on Israel) to make it happen.

 

[PhroX]

I can't say I'll shed a tear over a Hamas leader dying, but I'm pretty sure those actively celebrating it would've thrown a fit had Hamas assassinated Netanyahu during his recent trip to the US, even though the latter is in charge of an entity (the state of Israel) that has killed far more civilians than Hamas even did...

 

[Lexicus]

One of the reasons why peace talks stalled is that Israel wants some kind of guarantee that Oct.7 won't happen again. Hamas, whose ultimate goal is destruction of Israel, as stated in its charter, is unwilling to give any such guarantee.

What guarantees are the people of Palestine entitled to in your view?

I don't endorse it

Of course you endorse it, why lie? And we all know why. The whole "Ukraine can defend itself but Palestine isn't allowed to" routine coming out of Europe makes it kind of obvious.

Average Israeli wants guarantee that Oct.7 or the recent missile attack and similar stuff won't happen again. Hamas is unwilling to give any such guarantee.

If I were a thief and a murderer I'd want a "guarantee" never to be brought to justice too...

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

But do you know what you can? Average Ukrainian wants guarantee that there won't be another war once Russia recovers. Putin is unwilling to give any such guarantee, in fact all the proposals from Russian side were just about giving Russia a breather while cutting Ukraine off from western aid. Average Israeli wants guarantee that Oct.7 or the recent missile attack and similar stuff won't happen again. Hamas is unwilling to give any such guarantee.

Do you believe Russia has the right to demand Ukraine guarantee that Ukraine won't try to take back the land Russia currently occupies? That the displaced Ukrainians won't be allowed to return to the occupied lands? That Russia will have total control over Ukraine's borders? That all US-funded groups and organisations will be dismantled by Russia, to prevent Ukrainians from even thinking about trying to take their land back?

 

[Lexicus]

That Russia will have total control over Ukraine's borders?

And the right for the Russian armed forces to strike and kill whatever and whoever they want inside supposedly sovereign Ukrainian territory at any time and for any reason, don't forget that.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

And the right for the Russian armed forces to strike and kill whatever and whoever they want inside supposedly sovereign Ukrainian territory at any time and for any reason, don't forget that.

You mean inside US and European territory, because that's where the selfish cowardly Ukrainian "resistance" leaders will flee to carry on their struggle because they'd rather sacrifice millions of Ukrainians rather than accept the Democratic Republic of the Donetsk's right to exist

 

[Sarin]

There is no guarantee that Israel will stop their colonisation and apartheid of the Palestinian people.
Their occupation lasted some half century, now the spotlight has finally put this case in front of the world, to accept a Ceasefire for anything other than the 2 Nation Solution is doing a DISSERVICE to the Palestinian people, who AT least deserve the houses they were ousted from.

At least, the Palestinians deserve free trade, free access to their coast, free movement, food, water and other essential rights that are not controlled by their occupiers

The reason Oct7 happened in the first place is because you took thousands of people and shoved them in an open air prison and closed off all the escapes, feed them like hamsters and slowly overtook their land until eventually there are no Palestinians left at all.

Well, then you have a problem, because neither Netanyahu nor Hamas are willing to accept permanent two-state solution.You need to get rid of both if the peace talks are to begin in earnest.

Are you talking about Israeli occupiers, Hamas occupiers, or both? Because Hamas never treated Palestinians much better than Israeli did. Instead of developing Gaza, they funneled much of the aid to fuel their aggression against Israel.

And the history of Gaza is more complex than that, and you can't simplify it like this. The chain of cause and effect is long and goes back to people who are long dead and thus can't be brought to justice. Both sides are left with hot, steaming mess and every act of aggression from either side only fuels it. Until the people who are willing to take a step back and work out a compromise are in charge, it'll only get worse. And supporting either Hamas or Netanyahu, their actions or their maximalist goals in any way only makes it worse.

What guarantees are the people of Palestine entitled to in your view?



Of course you endorse it, why lie? And we all know why. The whole "Ukraine can defend itself but Palestine isn't allowed to" routine coming out of Europe makes it kind of obvious.



If I were a thief and a murderer I'd want a "guarantee" never to be brought to justice too...

Same as every other person on the planet.

You keep accusing me of lying without any evidence, because you paint, in your mind, everyone who disagrees in any way with you as rabid Netanyahu supporter, and can't or do not want to understand that people have vastly different views on this conflict that don't fully support either side like you do. Thus you argue not against me and my views, but against imagined person. As long as you keep at it, there's no point in you engaging in this discussion any further.

Case in point. There are many Israelis who were bon in Israel that don't want the war and just want to live in peace in their homeland. They disagree with Netanyahu, and many openly protest against him. Yet, you've called them thieves, murderers and deserving the Hamas terrorism all the same...

Do you believe Russia has the right to demand Ukraine guarantee that Ukraine won't try to take back the land Russia currently occupies? That the displaced Ukrainians won't be allowed to return to the occupied lands? That Russia will have total control over Ukraine's borders? That all US-funded groups and organisations will be dismantled by Russia, to prevent Ukrainians from even thinking about trying to take their land back?

Again, totally ignoring the difference between the conflicts. The war in Ukraine...you could argue that it started in 2014 or 2022, but it's without a doubt that it was started by Putin as part of his deranged imperial ambitions. When did the Gaza war started? It wasn't on Oct.7, that was just escalation. Was it in 1979, when Egypt renounced its claim on Gaza and left Israel with territory it didn't want, filled with people who resented Israel and some even tried to destroy it earlier in the wars? Or was it in 1948? Or even earlier, with Arab violence against native Jews during Ottoman and British government of the area? And so on....the differences in these conflicts make your feeble attempts at false equivalence pointless.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Bro the history of gaza is not complex, israel is an apartheid state built upon colonization of Palestinian land

 

[EgonSpengler]

I don't see any value in conflating the Russian invasion of Ukraine with either the current Israeli bombing of Gaza or the longer history behind the conflict in Palestine. Forcing one onto the other as some kind of analogy or template or parallel doesn't seem to illuminate or clarify anything about either conflict, for me.

 

[Sarin]

I don't see any value in conflating the Russian invasion of Ukraine with either the current Israeli bombing of Gaza or the longer history behind the conflict in Palestine. Forcing one onto the other as some kind of analogy or template or parallel doesn't seem to illuminate or clarify anything about either conflict, for me.

That's because there are very few actual parallels. It's just a fallacy of false equivalence pushed by some people.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Case in point. There are many Israelis who were bon in Israel that don't want the war and just want to live in peace in their homeland. They disagree with Netanyahu, and many openly protest against him.

Where are these Israeli anti-war protesters? The only protesters we've seen are the Orthodox Jews who don't want to be drafted, the anti-Netanyahu protests (because he's a corrupt ****), and the pro-rape activists

Again, totally ignoring the difference between the conflicts.

Yes there is a great difference between the conflicts. !Remindme when Ukraine is totally abandoned by its Western allies, Russia is receiving unconditional aid from the US and assassinating Ukrainian leaders left and right

I don't see any value in conflating the Russian invasion of Ukraine with either the current Israeli bombing of Gaza or the longer history behind the conflict in Palestine. Forcing one onto the other as some kind of analogy or template or parallel doesn't seem to illuminate or clarify anything about either conflict, for me.

You're not getting me. I'm not saying the two conflicts are the same, just that if the participants were switched suddenly some people would switch sides as well, almost as if it were a fixation on identity rather than any consistent moral framework