sendos
Immortal
I voted $5m because I largely see myself in the future as living alone and I wouldn't mind having a decent abode which might be a third to half that amount of money.
In the '80's, a gaffe by a Reagan Administration official that, "someone needs to dig ditches," that became a pre-Internet meme for a while (notably said by a character in Caddyshack 1) has become obsolete, because, unless you're a small private property contractor or landscaper, no one digs ditches with a shovel anymore - they use a backhoe, and that requires training, certification, safety standards, and, often, in many area, being unionized.
When I say sustainable I'm talking about ecological sustainability. Capitalism can never provide this because doing what it's going to take to achieve it only cuts into the bottom line. Even if you manage to successfully impose regulations on the capitalists so long as they retain their wealth you run the risk of losing control of the political process to them again and those regulations then get thrown or openly flouted without consequence. Since this is our current lived experience no one should need to have their arm twisted to be convinced of this.
Our evidence that nationalization works is historical. The US dominates tech industries because R&D for the entire sector has been nationalized through the Pentagon. Our financial institutions dominate the globe because they are effectively nationalized through implicit guarantee of bailout in the event of a crisis. Instead of nationalizing the profits, however, we let those go into private hands.
At the risk of being labeled a "tankie" I'm also going to point to both the USSR and China as what are probably the two most potent examples of the power of nationalization. Tsarist Russia was one of the poorest and most backward nations of Europe and within two generations transformed itself into an industrial superpower despite being diplomatically and economically isolated by a much, much strong rival. China has achieved economic growth and expansion of its middle classes which are historically unparalleled.
If you (or anyone else) is queuing up a "won't someone please think of the atrocities" reply to this point I am going to preemptively rebut that our own society could not and would not have industrialized without killing off the natives to clear land, stealing mineral wealth from the rest of the world via colonialism, accumulation of capital via the export of cotton which necessitated slavery to be profitable, etc. There is no difference between "us" and "them" in this regard. If anything the US has more blood on its hands but no one is going to relentlessly propagandize you regarding this fact nor are they able to point to singular large scale disasters like failures of collectivized agriculture which we are obviously under no obligation to repeat in any event.
Corporate wealth and personal wealth will always be linked for the super rich because their personal wealth is primarily held in the form of corporate stock. Once the productive assets of a corporation have been seized by the state that stock instantly becomes worthless. You cut the legs of a capitalist right out from underneath them.
As an example of how we could use nationalization to immediately aid the poor without doing much else let's take our nation's electrical grid as an example. In our hypothetical the grid and all power plants have been nationalized by legislative fiat. Without changing anything else about how these entities currently operate the state can order that instead of paying back profits in the form of dividends and buy backs we will instead use them to finance reduction of emissions to improve the lives of those who are currently stuck living next to them and we could also be outright waiving payment for those who can't currently afford their service instead of having the state pay a subsidy to enrich and empower a private entity.
If we nationalized the internet again we could transform it back into the educational and communications tool it was intended to be instead of the Orwellian "Big Brother" surveillance service and propaganda/advertising delivery vehicle that it's become. The global ascendency of the far right has been in lock step with the rise in use of social media and this is NOT AN ACCIDENT.
Certainly capitalism could provide a sustainable improved environment. We have seen steadily improving water and air for 70 years. We see continued reductions in the worst of the fossil fuels. So far it has not been quick, but it has been steady. Given the current situation and impending crisis, can capitalism move fast enough to avert what seems likely. And given that the ecological crisis is world wide, the bigger issue is how much will the key nations of the world actually cooperate. Nationalizing big industry does little to change people's minds about what is happening and to a large degree it is the attitude of people that will determine the success or failure of any effort. Only a government like China or NK can mandate a policy and have any likelihood of it getting followed by the masses. In the US we can't even get people to wear makes to save their lives. China has been trying very hard for 20 years to clean up its environment using the full power of the state. It has made progress but it is still way behind much of western Europe and the US. Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang are the price paid for that kind of control.When I say sustainable I'm talking about ecological sustainability. Capitalism can never provide this because doing what it's going to take to achieve it only cuts into the bottom line. Even if you manage to successfully impose regulations on the capitalists so long as they retain their wealth you run the risk of losing control of the political process to them again and those regulations then get thrown or openly flouted without consequence. Since this is our current lived experience no one should need to have their arm twisted to be convinced of this.
Until recently (the past 20 year or so), tech transfers out of the national labs was slow and much less frequent. The glitch has always been that the scientists that do the research usually lack the business skills and ability to take that research and develop the processes required to make products available to the general public. What usually happens is that a lab scientist partners with business people who put up the money for the transition from research results to "products" on the shelf. Not all succeed. NM has three national labs and I see numerous spin out companies from Los Alamos, Sandia, and Kirtland Air Force lab. The government has no capacity for developing small businesses to sell products. The motivation for going through years of transitioning products out of the labs is profit.Our evidence that nationalization works is historical. The US dominates tech industries because R&D for the entire sector has been nationalized through the Pentagon. Our financial institutions dominate the globe because they are effectively nationalized through implicit guarantee of bailout in the event of a crisis. Instead of nationalizing the profits, however, we let those go into private hands.
Typical examples. First, the USSR's industrial base had huge help during the war from the US lend lease program that enable them build up their infrastructure. Second, they mostly copied Western tech and practices to become a world power, but that status only lasted until their economic collapse in the 80s. Their centralized government programs could sustain either economic growth or a standard of living that approached that of the west. Their system had too many broken parts to keep running.At the risk of being labeled a "tankie" I'm also going to point to both the USSR and China as what are probably the two most potent examples of the power of nationalization. Tsarist Russia was one of the poorest and most backward nations of Europe and within two generations transformed itself into an industrial superpower despite being diplomatically and economically isolated by a much, much strong rival. China has achieved economic growth and expansion of its middle classes which are historically unparalleled.
What about those of who keep their wealth in bonds? Or privately held companies? The Stock market has about 3000 publicly traded companies. The US has about 18 million corporations. 98.7% of them have less than 100 employees. Example: Trump's company; privately held; it has generated millions of dollars in profits to the Trump family. To seize those company assets the government would be taking on the burden of running office building, hotels and golf courses....Corporate wealth and personal wealth will always be linked for the super rich because their personal wealth is primarily held in the form of corporate stock. Once the productive assets of a corporation have been seized by the state that stock instantly becomes worthless. You cut the legs of a capitalist right out from underneath them.
14.2% of the US population don't have access to the internet so its debateable that its essential. Same goes for a mobile.
Is it a disadvantage not to have them? Yes, but not essential.
I voted $5m because I largely see myself in the future as living alone and I wouldn't mind having a decent abode which might be a third to half that amount of money.
that's flatly not believable. The only way that works is if all of these people are utterly removed from the labor force.
Certainly capitalism could provide a sustainable improved environment. We have seen steadily improving water and air for 70 years. We see continued reductions in the worst of the fossil fuels. So far it has not been quick, but it has been steady. Given the current situation and impending crisis, can capitalism move fast enough to avert what seems likely. And given that the ecological crisis is world wide, the bigger issue is how much will the key nations of the world actually cooperate. Nationalizing big industry does little to change people's minds about what is happening and to a large degree it is the attitude of people that will determine the success or failure of any effort. Only a government like China or NK can mandate a policy and have any likelihood of it getting followed by the masses. In the US we can't even get people to wear makes to save their lives. China has been trying very hard for 20 years to clean up its environment using the full power of the state. It has made progress but it is still way behind much of western Europe and the US. Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang are the price paid for that kind of control.
Typical examples. First, the USSR's industrial base had huge help during the war from the US lend lease program that enable them build up their infrastructure. Second, they mostly copied Western tech and practices to become a world power, but that status only lasted until their economic collapse in the 80s. Their centralized government programs could sustain either economic growth or a standard of living that approached that of the west. Their system had too many broken parts to keep running.
This is a fallacious argument that is made all the time. Any technological or societal "advances" made in recent times are attributed to capitalism, even though that is both wrong and impossible to prove. Another person might blindly attribute all the "progress" we made to science. Another will blindly attribute it to "policy". Of course all of those are wrong as single answers. Capitalism did not bring us "steadily improved water and air", the opposite is the case. We managed to steadily improve access and quality of tap water in spite of capitalism, not because of it.
Another fallacious argument that is made all the time. The USSR only "copied" from Western tech. This is also a lie which is often repeated, though nowadays it is almost always aimed at China. Fact is that the Soviets themselves invented a great deal of patents, were in some venues much behind, in others toe-to-toe, in then others "ahead" of "the west", if you even buy into all of these dumb generelizations.
You are right, the failure of the Soviet Union was not solely because of their command economy. It was a whole system of government, social policy, economic policy, party politics etc. that sucked and had few allies outside of its sphere of influence to help them. It worked for while but was not sustainable.What capitalism did give us is the DuPont scandal, DDT and the mass genocide of aerial life, rivers full of meds and horribly disfigured babies, people who are crippled because pesticides and herbicides are sprayed over their villages, and other great features. These are actually specifically attributable to big corporations. All of the "progress" we have made is not a product of capitalism, but a consequence of the interaction of human labor, research, policy and human social dynamics. If anyone attributes all progress to capitalism or science, you can instantly tell they're bull****ting reductionists. It would be equally stupid to say that all of the milestones of the Soviet Union happened because of the "command economy", in fact lots of "progress" happened despite the command economy.
So when you run out of arguments, you play the "you are a racist" card?The only difference is that when it's white people, you call it "inspiration", "collaboration", but when it's nonwhites it's "copying" or "stealing".
People are desperately trying to make that true. They're not the leaders the world deserves, but I suppose they're the ones we've always had.
2.5 would buy you enough ground to start one of those evil "ruthless food exporting production enterprises" in the Midwest. Then again, you'd have to rent more ground and work for what I'm starting to understand isn't considered a rational wage. I've wasted at least two people's lifetimes thinking it was, at this point. I should probably up my insurance. I may yet salvage the 3rd.
The government already developed this but the tax return lobby has fought tooth and nail to keep it from general release.At the same time, have the government create free, accessible-to-everyone tax software, and automate as much of the process as possible.
The government already developed this but the tax return lobby has fought tooth and nail to keep it from general release.
If leftists ever seize the US government you can convert the CIA into a coup-machine for socialism.
Which "leftists," in the United States who would have any true support for actually propagating and nurturing Socialist regimes abroad that have any chance of coming to power were you thinking. Gloria de la Riva is imperceptible in the polls, and the DNC are NEVER going to allow Sanders, Warren, AOC, or someone else of their ideological camp to be nominated - and, even if they did, they'd have a tortuous General Election and a hostile Congress - from Republicans and a majority of Democrats. And, the three I listed as possible left-wing Democratic nominee candidates, and others like them (as opposed to de la Riva and such), are not actually Socialists ideologically, but Social Democrats, and may not be up for supporting the Third World takes on Socialism. I'm not sure who these "leftists," with clout to come to power you're thinking of are, but I'm drawing a blank.
GMAFB. We are obviously discussing hypotheticals.
Well, you might as well be discussing Islamists or Monarchists coming to power in the United States for those kind of hypotheticals, frankly...