What is your opinion on Venice possibly being included as a civ?

[Hruberen]

I'm strongly against Venice as a civ, it's perfectly represented by being a city state, why does it need to be elevated to a whole civilization?

here are other countries that I would much prefer to be included, even other european countries such as Hungary or even the Holy Roman Empire again.

Venice is a place you go to visit only, and doesn't belong competing with civs like America, Zulu, Siam, Indonesia, Sweden and so on and so forth.

They types of interaction you would engage in with Venice simply didn't happen in any considerable capability in the real world. They were never feared or conquered or anything of the sort, it would be more immersion breaking than the mythical natural wonders, as those at least had a believable effect on the real world.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Since G&K the city-states have come to represent important cities that aren't attached to civs more than the strict definition of a city-state. And really, there were several from vanilla and DLC that were like that too.

 

[Yzman]

You seriously think Venice is more deserving than the Iroquois?

They are already in the game...who is this comment to?

 

[Colmar]

I'm strongly against Venice as a civ, it's perfectly represented by being a city state, why does it need to be elevated to a whole civilization?

here are other countries that I would much prefer to be included, even other european countries such as Hungary or even the Holy Roman Empire again.

Venice is a place you go to visit only, and doesn't belong competing with civs like America, Zulu, Siam, Indonesia, Sweden and so on and so forth.

They types of interaction you would engage in with Venice simply didn't happen in any considerable capability in the real world. They were never feared or conquered or anything of the sort, it would be more immersion breaking than the mythical natural wonders, as those at least had a believable effect on the real world.

Maybe you should read up on the Republic of Venice. They were pretty good at conquering and flourishing, and definitely are more deserving than the Zulu. They interacted quite a bit. Marco Polo (of Venice) connected the two most important cultures/economies of the time and helped bring an age of the Silk Road. Venice may be a tourist town nowadays, but it was a world city (and capital of an empire of normal size by Euro standards) in its heyday.

 

[Menzies]

You seriously think Venice is more deserving than the Iroquois?

They definitely are, but the point is that Americo-centrism with this type of game with mean that Native peoples of their region will always be given a look in ahead of much better options.

 

[Hruberen]

Maybe you should read up on the Republic of Venice. They were pretty good at conquering and flourishing, and definitely are more deserving than the Zulu. They interacted quite a bit. Marco Polo (of Venice) connected the two most important cultures/economies of the time and helped bring an age of the Silk Road. Venice may be a tourist town nowadays, but it was a world city (and capital of an empire of normal size by Euro standards) in its heyday.

This isn't common knowledge however...

To the common man the Zulu represent almost all of the native people of Africa, which then makes sense. The common man sees Venice as a static nation, and would not know of her conquests, maybe perhaps of art, but that is better represented by Florence. Most people hear of Marco Polo, but do not know that he is Venetian.

This could lead to Venice being a dark horse civilization of course, but there are btter civilizations like perhaps the Hittites, Kongo, and Nubia.

 

[poom3619]

This isn't common knowledge however...

To the common man the Zulu represent almost all of the native people of Africa, which then makes sense. The common man sees Venice as a static nation, and would not know of her conquests, maybe perhaps of art, but that is better represented by Florence. Most people hear of Marco Polo, but do not know that he is Venetian.

This could lead to Venice being a dark horse civilization of course, but there are btter civilizations like perhaps the Hittites, Kongo, and Nubia.

Who's the common man you're talking about? I think I can safely insult intelligence of anyone who think Zulu == Native African, if that's common man you are talking about.

(There are much more resistance in this thread than everywhere else)

 

[Joe Hoofer]

I'm sick of the Eurocentrism and its defenders. It just strikes me as passive racism. While I'm for Venice (really!), there needs to be more civs from South and Central Asia, sub-Saharan Africa, and the Americas. They're criminally underrepresented, and anyone who claims they weren't advanced enough to count as civilizations is full of it.
Think about it. In Civilization, you can build the Taj Mahal in Cleveland! Nebuchadnezzar can butt heads with Haile Selassie! Who says that there can't be such a thing as a unified Polynesia, or a continent-spanning Cherokee empire?
It's about geographical and cultural uniqueness, not who had the biggest weapons.

 

[Arachnofiend]

This isn't common knowledge however...

To the common man the Zulu represent almost all of the native people of Africa, which then makes sense. The common man sees Venice as a static nation, and would not know of her conquests, maybe perhaps of art, but that is better represented by Florence. Most people hear of Marco Polo, but do not know that he is Venetian.

This could lead to Venice being a dark horse civilization of course, but there are btter civilizations like perhaps the Hittites, Kongo, and Nubia.

I think you mean the common man who played Civ IV. To the common man, Africa is Egypt plus a vast, empty territory that slaves were magically withdrawn from during the Age of Exploration.

Basically what I'm saying here is that if Firaxis limited the list of civs to what is common knowledge the list would be very, very short.

 

[ptoss1]

I thought Venice was a small city...

 

[Arachnofiend]

I thought Venice was a small city...

Would it be possible to put this in the OP? The amount of times this map has been linked to at this point is getting rather ridiculous.

 

[ImperialChaos]

Posted this in the 9 new civs thread but meant to post it here:

I'm just really bummed they chose Venice over Italy. I mean Venice was a substantial empire especially known for it's trade and various military victories. Enrico Dandolo is specifically one badass individual. It's just Italy fit every aspect of this expansion: it has legendary culture, vast history if you include the Italian states (much like Greece in Civ games), is a major economic power now (G8), and had a huge role in the Ideology clash that this expansion promotes. Italy fit this expansion much more than the Venetian Republic.

I just see Venice being like Portugal and Indonesia and being a naval trade civilization. I hope they do something special with it.

 

[Martinus]

You seriously think Venice is more deserving than the Iroquois?

Let's see - a city that rose to be a regional power, defeated both the Byzantines and the Turks, controlled a big part of international trade and remains one of the biggest tourism destinations to this day vs. a collection of tents in the mud that got overrun the moment it faced its first existential threat - yes I empathically do.

 

[Joe Hoofer]

a collection of tents in the mud that got overrun the moment it faced its first existential threat

Are you not aware of how horribly, sickeningly racist that is?

 

[ptoss1]

Let's see - a city that rose to be a regional power, defeated both the Byzantines and the Turks, controlled a big part of international trade and remains one of the biggest tourism destinations to this day vs. a collection of tents in the mud that got overrun the moment it faced its first existential threat - yes I empathically do.

Ya. Boo them for not discovering vaccines hundreds of years before everybody else.
Pretty sure Mongols lived in a collection of tents too. They didn't even know how to farm. What's wrong with them?

 

[Arachnofiend]

I wasn't aware that 200 years was considered a moment.

 

[Martinus]

Ya. Boo them for not discovering vaccines hundreds of years before everybody else.
Pretty sure Mongols lived in a collection of tents too. They didn't even know how to farm. What's wrong with them?

Yes, and then they went and conquered half of Asia and parts of Europe. Some civilizations' claim to fame was brutal conquest; for others it was trade, or achievements of arts and culture. What was it for Iroquis, except for modern white Americans' guilt for exterminating them?

 

[Arachnofiend]

Trade. The northeastern fur trade went through the Iroquois Confederacy and the other surrounding tribes.

 

[Joe Hoofer]

What was it for Iroquis, except for modern white Americans' guilt for exterminating them?

Considering how you think that the Iroquois lived in "tents in the mud," I really don't think that you can contribute anything intelligent to a discussion about them at the moment.

 

[Gucumatz]

The fact that they were one of the Fur Powers? The Iroquois were the protectors of various Northeastern tribes in a sort of Feudal governance. Other tribes would pledge allegiance to the Iroquois and they grew to be one of the richest tribes in the US playing the French, Dutch, and English off each other. In a sort-of Europeanesique style even before the European dominance of the area, they took tribute and established a tributary system with their neighbours. Their claims extended all the way to Ohio at one point

The Tuscarora, one of the 6 Iroquois tribes tried to unite the East coast at one point in a series of wars called the Tuscarora Wars in hopes of creating a unified Eastern Native Front. One of the most populous of the northeastern tribes, their territory was quite expansive.

Plus they didn't live in tents stuck in mud as you claim to think