What should the US response Be?
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TheDuckOfFlanders
the fish collecter
from magnus:
allan
Cabrón
WOKE: "I'm not sure what is more environmental friendly though: accept the polution from nuking the entire united states and instantly remove all production of polution, or just let them polute and accept it till all fosil fuels are depleted. (everyone who takes this thought seriously is an idiot )"
You shouldn't even be thinking it. Shame on you. BEEYATCH....
I don't joke about nuking Amsterdam, and if someone did I'd be equally outraged....
Trust me, Wake, that while overall human nature is inherently good, there are SOME humans who are inherently evil. Life experience has taught me this, often the hard way.... The events of a few days ago should be teaching EVERYONE this--and I know, as an ex-bleeding-heart myself, that it IS a hard lesson to learn and face (sort of tips your rosy worldview upside-down, doesn't it?). But that is reality.
People like Osama bin Laden are like that. And they aren't talkers, but doers. If you were in the World Trade Center, and they found out you were some liberal champion for the Palestinians or for withdrawing western troops EVERYWHERE, they'd just shrug. People like this TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE of human instinct for compassion and accomodation and openness, and surprise them at the very end with a planeload of jet fuel. They blend in with normal folk and subvert them. They eat people like you for breakfast and think nothing of it....
This is not about Islam--the Koran does not sanction what they are doing--this is about people with NO ethics or moral constraints trying to take the world from the majority of us who HAVE ethics and moral constraints. They will deceive the latter, use them, and if it suits their desires KILL them. We Americans right now feel violated, raped.... They have used our openness to outsiders to learn how to fly our planes, use our air system, and kill thousands. NO cause justifies THIS. NONE. And they've just damned their cause--I hope the Palestinians, the Iraqi people, or whoever are thanking him profusely for the "favor" he's just done them....
Everyone knows we must have a war to eradicate people like these. Some may have to adjust their worldview to accomodate this new reality, but we've ALL had to adjust some the last few days--and some never got a chance to.... <img src="icon9.gif" border="0">
Peace is an ideal--and a good one--but peace is not merely the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice....
You shouldn't even be thinking it. Shame on you. BEEYATCH....
I don't joke about nuking Amsterdam, and if someone did I'd be equally outraged....
Trust me, Wake, that while overall human nature is inherently good, there are SOME humans who are inherently evil. Life experience has taught me this, often the hard way.... The events of a few days ago should be teaching EVERYONE this--and I know, as an ex-bleeding-heart myself, that it IS a hard lesson to learn and face (sort of tips your rosy worldview upside-down, doesn't it?). But that is reality.
People like Osama bin Laden are like that. And they aren't talkers, but doers. If you were in the World Trade Center, and they found out you were some liberal champion for the Palestinians or for withdrawing western troops EVERYWHERE, they'd just shrug. People like this TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE of human instinct for compassion and accomodation and openness, and surprise them at the very end with a planeload of jet fuel. They blend in with normal folk and subvert them. They eat people like you for breakfast and think nothing of it....
This is not about Islam--the Koran does not sanction what they are doing--this is about people with NO ethics or moral constraints trying to take the world from the majority of us who HAVE ethics and moral constraints. They will deceive the latter, use them, and if it suits their desires KILL them. We Americans right now feel violated, raped.... They have used our openness to outsiders to learn how to fly our planes, use our air system, and kill thousands. NO cause justifies THIS. NONE. And they've just damned their cause--I hope the Palestinians, the Iraqi people, or whoever are thanking him profusely for the "favor" he's just done them....
Everyone knows we must have a war to eradicate people like these. Some may have to adjust their worldview to accomodate this new reality, but we've ALL had to adjust some the last few days--and some never got a chance to.... <img src="icon9.gif" border="0">
Peace is an ideal--and a good one--but peace is not merely the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice....
Ashoka
Reluctant Warrior
Well, if this violent act ushers in a new peace, something will be gained then.
Some thoughts -
1) Now is a good time for the US to get over the Cuba situation. Bush might even be able to pull it off as part of the 'broad, anti-terrorist coalition' being built. The whole situation is only because some old Cubans in Miami have never gotten over the fall of Batista, and they give lots of $$$ to the Republicans. Let's give it a rest.
2) G-man and our other Israeli friends on this board aside, thie is the time to settle the Jerusalem/West Bank issue. Easier said then done, I know. While the video of the Palestinaians celebrating the attack makes me want to say 'roll the tanks in!!' - - if cooler heads do not prevail, it will just make things worse. Both the Palestinains and the Israeli gov't get US funds - Daddy is closing the bankroll until we can all sit down and get this resolved. It may also help if the most radical Palestinians realize the Islamic extemists who back them are about to be *extremely* busy for the next 3 years - - so it may be best to take whatever deal they can get now. What is offered later will be much less attractive. We need to do this before Arafat croaks of old age.
3) US needs to be better to ALL our European allies, and stop acting like we know everything. Sign Kyoto, UN Convention on the Rights of Children, stop the stupid Star Wars research, and overall stop acting like such a bully with our allies (except for France - grrrr!!)
4) US should pressure our Arab allies who run dictatorships (Saudis, for one) to step up the pace of Democratic reform. They are a major reason we are in this mess in the first place, because their citizens can't fight them within their own police-state countries. It's easier to go to the US, with our freedoms, and strike at us.<br />If US threatens to pull out our miltary, the Saudis would collapse because bin Lauden would return to take the country over. Most Americans are ready to pay more for gas at this point, because we are pissed.
5) States that majorly sponsor terrorists as part of the fabric of their government (Iraq, Afganistan, Syria) should be dealt with in a very strong military way within a coalition of allies. Ground forces need to invade - totally break down the existing infrastructure, with a commiment to a new "Marshall Plan" to restore stability once terror-based goverments are destroyed.
If we are unwilling to do something long-term like this, then the US should just stop all the flag waving, clean up the mess, plant some trees and grass in NYC as a "Memorial Park", and go back to media-obsessed culture we were before Sept 11.
<br />In Peace -<br />Ashoka
Some thoughts -
1) Now is a good time for the US to get over the Cuba situation. Bush might even be able to pull it off as part of the 'broad, anti-terrorist coalition' being built. The whole situation is only because some old Cubans in Miami have never gotten over the fall of Batista, and they give lots of $$$ to the Republicans. Let's give it a rest.
2) G-man and our other Israeli friends on this board aside, thie is the time to settle the Jerusalem/West Bank issue. Easier said then done, I know. While the video of the Palestinaians celebrating the attack makes me want to say 'roll the tanks in!!' - - if cooler heads do not prevail, it will just make things worse. Both the Palestinains and the Israeli gov't get US funds - Daddy is closing the bankroll until we can all sit down and get this resolved. It may also help if the most radical Palestinians realize the Islamic extemists who back them are about to be *extremely* busy for the next 3 years - - so it may be best to take whatever deal they can get now. What is offered later will be much less attractive. We need to do this before Arafat croaks of old age.
3) US needs to be better to ALL our European allies, and stop acting like we know everything. Sign Kyoto, UN Convention on the Rights of Children, stop the stupid Star Wars research, and overall stop acting like such a bully with our allies (except for France - grrrr!!)
4) US should pressure our Arab allies who run dictatorships (Saudis, for one) to step up the pace of Democratic reform. They are a major reason we are in this mess in the first place, because their citizens can't fight them within their own police-state countries. It's easier to go to the US, with our freedoms, and strike at us.<br />If US threatens to pull out our miltary, the Saudis would collapse because bin Lauden would return to take the country over. Most Americans are ready to pay more for gas at this point, because we are pissed.
5) States that majorly sponsor terrorists as part of the fabric of their government (Iraq, Afganistan, Syria) should be dealt with in a very strong military way within a coalition of allies. Ground forces need to invade - totally break down the existing infrastructure, with a commiment to a new "Marshall Plan" to restore stability once terror-based goverments are destroyed.
If we are unwilling to do something long-term like this, then the US should just stop all the flag waving, clean up the mess, plant some trees and grass in NYC as a "Memorial Park", and go back to media-obsessed culture we were before Sept 11.
<br />In Peace -<br />Ashoka
VoodooAce
Emperor
Sure have heard a lot of liberal bashing.
Conservatives here in America just don't like the liberals. But don't forget, it's the conservatives in Islam that encourage terrorism and violence. The liberals want peace, want to get along. It is the liberals that are against the mutilation of, and overall oppression of women in Islam.
In the Soviet Union, it was the liberals who always were for making concessions to the US and for improving relations with the US as much as the conservatives there would let them. The same was always true in the US also.
The problem is that the conservatives on the right always win out with demogoguery (wow, big word. sp?). They put enough fear into people that they are willing to commit atrocities....whether it's flying a passenger jet into a skyscraper, or bombing an innocent population that worries only where the next meal and fresh water will come from.
All conservatives in the world, whether they be American, Islamic, European or Asian, are the ones who are truly deserve the crux of the blame.
To me, the real evil in the world today is conservatism.
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: VoodooAce ]
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: VoodooAce ]</p>
Conservatives here in America just don't like the liberals. But don't forget, it's the conservatives in Islam that encourage terrorism and violence. The liberals want peace, want to get along. It is the liberals that are against the mutilation of, and overall oppression of women in Islam.
In the Soviet Union, it was the liberals who always were for making concessions to the US and for improving relations with the US as much as the conservatives there would let them. The same was always true in the US also.
The problem is that the conservatives on the right always win out with demogoguery (wow, big word. sp?). They put enough fear into people that they are willing to commit atrocities....whether it's flying a passenger jet into a skyscraper, or bombing an innocent population that worries only where the next meal and fresh water will come from.
All conservatives in the world, whether they be American, Islamic, European or Asian, are the ones who are truly deserve the crux of the blame.
To me, the real evil in the world today is conservatism.
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: VoodooAce ]
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: VoodooAce ]</p>
Ashoka
Reluctant Warrior
Voodoo -
Hope you didn't mistake my rants as 'conservative' - - you'll piss off the true conservatives who post here!!
I'm pretty leftist - I voted for Nader (gee, now *everyone* will hate me!!) but I guess I'm extremely goal-oriented for a progressive. Most of my buddies spend too much time making fluffy, PC statements and daydreaming.
This situation is so horrible, so out of control, my dyed-in-the-wool pacifist freinds are even prepared for a military response. If military action is part of a specific, goal-oriented response, and not a knee-jerk reaction, even a liberal person can be supportive, IMHO.
In peace -<br />Ashoka
Hope you didn't mistake my rants as 'conservative' - - you'll piss off the true conservatives who post here!!
I'm pretty leftist - I voted for Nader (gee, now *everyone* will hate me!!) but I guess I'm extremely goal-oriented for a progressive. Most of my buddies spend too much time making fluffy, PC statements and daydreaming.
This situation is so horrible, so out of control, my dyed-in-the-wool pacifist freinds are even prepared for a military response. If military action is part of a specific, goal-oriented response, and not a knee-jerk reaction, even a liberal person can be supportive, IMHO.
In peace -<br />Ashoka
allan
Cabrón
About your list, Ashoka:
1 and 5, definitely. I've wondered for years why we still shun Cuba while we trade with Vietnam, other than precisely for the reason you state. Withholding free trade from them only strengthens Castro's communism.... And 5, yes--this is exactly what we must do--and not forget the Marshall Plan afterwards, or there will be no peace after the war....
2 unfortunately probably cannot be done right now. We cannot show ANY sign of concession to the desires of bin Laden now, even if we want to. But after this debt is settled, then perhaps--IF both sides really want peace. If they do not, we cannot make it so.... The Palestinians have tragically "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity" as the saying goes--I hope for their sake that they take whatever deal they can get from Israel too, now. Which just got less now....
3--well, "arrogance" is a lot of times in the ear of the listener.... Sometimes some things Europeans have said have come across as "arrogant" to me, too, particularly in the "intellectual snobbery" category (not ALL Europeans, but a loud few of them). The Europeans have had a long history of running the world, too, and at their height they weren't any better than we are now (many would argue worse).... Some of today's Europeans seem to be holding on to that past glory, and have an animosity of Americans because they are now their successor. I will ask one thing though--would ANY European country want the "number one" position now in the world, given the types of things (like Tuesday) that can happen to such a country?
That having been said, yes we should reconsider Kyoto, look at ALL the facts, and decide based on good judgment, NOT on peer pressure--that is ALWAYS sound advice in any situation. But we should look at it again, definitely. We are right now thankful for loyal allies in our time of struggle--but alliances DO mean compromises and accomodations, at least to survive past immediate adversity.... We should act more like partners than we do sometimes, even if we ARE far more powerful....
4 is extremely difficult. Unless the people of those countries WANT democracy, democracy will not work there. Believe it or not, not EVERY common man worldwide wants democracy--some see it as disorderly, and leading to the type of insecure situations as witnessed Tuesday, as well as increased street crime, decadence, etc. Some value safety more than freedom. But where democracy movements are flowering, we should embrace them rather than the dictator upholding our "interests".
I'll add to your list "6"--we need to allow other energy sources to be developed and used. Dependency on oil is biting us all in the butt right now, and there is NO reason we should have this dependence....
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: allan ]</p>
1 and 5, definitely. I've wondered for years why we still shun Cuba while we trade with Vietnam, other than precisely for the reason you state. Withholding free trade from them only strengthens Castro's communism.... And 5, yes--this is exactly what we must do--and not forget the Marshall Plan afterwards, or there will be no peace after the war....
2 unfortunately probably cannot be done right now. We cannot show ANY sign of concession to the desires of bin Laden now, even if we want to. But after this debt is settled, then perhaps--IF both sides really want peace. If they do not, we cannot make it so.... The Palestinians have tragically "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity" as the saying goes--I hope for their sake that they take whatever deal they can get from Israel too, now. Which just got less now....
3--well, "arrogance" is a lot of times in the ear of the listener.... Sometimes some things Europeans have said have come across as "arrogant" to me, too, particularly in the "intellectual snobbery" category (not ALL Europeans, but a loud few of them). The Europeans have had a long history of running the world, too, and at their height they weren't any better than we are now (many would argue worse).... Some of today's Europeans seem to be holding on to that past glory, and have an animosity of Americans because they are now their successor. I will ask one thing though--would ANY European country want the "number one" position now in the world, given the types of things (like Tuesday) that can happen to such a country?
That having been said, yes we should reconsider Kyoto, look at ALL the facts, and decide based on good judgment, NOT on peer pressure--that is ALWAYS sound advice in any situation. But we should look at it again, definitely. We are right now thankful for loyal allies in our time of struggle--but alliances DO mean compromises and accomodations, at least to survive past immediate adversity.... We should act more like partners than we do sometimes, even if we ARE far more powerful....
4 is extremely difficult. Unless the people of those countries WANT democracy, democracy will not work there. Believe it or not, not EVERY common man worldwide wants democracy--some see it as disorderly, and leading to the type of insecure situations as witnessed Tuesday, as well as increased street crime, decadence, etc. Some value safety more than freedom. But where democracy movements are flowering, we should embrace them rather than the dictator upholding our "interests".
I'll add to your list "6"--we need to allow other energy sources to be developed and used. Dependency on oil is biting us all in the butt right now, and there is NO reason we should have this dependence....
[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: allan ]</p>
Ashoka
Reluctant Warrior
Motion accepted as ammended.
Item six is added to the official Ashoka/Allan plan to fix everything - item 2 is moved to back burner, and item 4 ammended to apply to countries where legit democratic reforms are actual desired by a majority of the governed populace.
NOW - - all we need is NATO to sign on, too. Just a minor, final step....
<br />Ashoka
Item six is added to the official Ashoka/Allan plan to fix everything - item 2 is moved to back burner, and item 4 ammended to apply to countries where legit democratic reforms are actual desired by a majority of the governed populace.
NOW - - all we need is NATO to sign on, too. Just a minor, final step....
<br />Ashoka
ERIKtheRED
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2001
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cropduster:
Genocide is the absolute of evil. It is astonishing to me that anyone could favor genocide against muslims after just 4 days. The rascist demagoguery(sp.) that seems to have reached millions of americans is unbelievable! Anyone who advocates Genocide is no better than Osama bin Ladin. I am horrified.
My vote: We should not launch airstikes and certainly not declare war. Bombing will only win converts for the Islamic extremists. We should arrest and prosecute anyone involved. Beyond this, any action will provoke, rather than deter, more terrorism. The only solution is to end the cycle of hatred by withdrawing our unconditional support of Isreal's war on its Muslim citizens and end our imperialism in the Middle East and World wide.
There must be no extra legal executions, as various peoples have advocated. I truly fear we will slip into fascism if such disrespect for the rule of law and justice are prevalent.
Genocide is the absolute of evil. It is astonishing to me that anyone could favor genocide against muslims after just 4 days. The rascist demagoguery(sp.) that seems to have reached millions of americans is unbelievable! Anyone who advocates Genocide is no better than Osama bin Ladin. I am horrified.
My vote: We should not launch airstikes and certainly not declare war. Bombing will only win converts for the Islamic extremists. We should arrest and prosecute anyone involved. Beyond this, any action will provoke, rather than deter, more terrorism. The only solution is to end the cycle of hatred by withdrawing our unconditional support of Isreal's war on its Muslim citizens and end our imperialism in the Middle East and World wide.
There must be no extra legal executions, as various peoples have advocated. I truly fear we will slip into fascism if such disrespect for the rule of law and justice are prevalent.
R
Rangers, Lead the Way
Guest
Morten Blaabjerg
Settler
sw99
Random Entity
I've not posted on this topic before, I feel like it's only just coming together in my head and I was just numb before.
When I really think about what happened it's hard not to be shocked by it, and I mean shocked in a way that really saddens you that the world could be so changed in just one day.<br />I know we can never erase the events on that unbelievable day but the overwhelming feeling inside me is that I just want the world to return to the comfortable status quo that we had last week. Everything else just seems so irrelevant now, last weeks big news is nothing now.
When I think of the repurcussions of this event I can only hope that the governments of the all the countries pledging support will not blindly attack targets without thinking about the long term. I have muslim colleagues at work who say they have already been the target of verbal abuse and threats, and we just live in a small city in england. I dread to think of what the arab-americans are going to go through in the coming months. I know i'm going to aggravate a lot of people here, but i'm far more afraid for arab citizens, both in the middle east and in western countries, than I am for any americans right now.
I know this was a huge event, but can anyone tell me, why 3 days after the event, president bush has declared a national state of emergency? What exactly is that going to accomplish? We don't need to get any more alarmist about this, it is serious enough already.
When I really think about what happened it's hard not to be shocked by it, and I mean shocked in a way that really saddens you that the world could be so changed in just one day.<br />I know we can never erase the events on that unbelievable day but the overwhelming feeling inside me is that I just want the world to return to the comfortable status quo that we had last week. Everything else just seems so irrelevant now, last weeks big news is nothing now.
When I think of the repurcussions of this event I can only hope that the governments of the all the countries pledging support will not blindly attack targets without thinking about the long term. I have muslim colleagues at work who say they have already been the target of verbal abuse and threats, and we just live in a small city in england. I dread to think of what the arab-americans are going to go through in the coming months. I know i'm going to aggravate a lot of people here, but i'm far more afraid for arab citizens, both in the middle east and in western countries, than I am for any americans right now.
I know this was a huge event, but can anyone tell me, why 3 days after the event, president bush has declared a national state of emergency? What exactly is that going to accomplish? We don't need to get any more alarmist about this, it is serious enough already.
a_disciple
Journeyman
I think that the US should be very carefull over what action to take against the terrorists. If the US go to war with - mabey - Afghanistan or Iraq or some other country. They should think of the qonsequences of that there is a possibility that these countries have nuclear weapons or maby even biochemical weapons, they would not tarry using them. <img src="icon9.gif" border="0"> These people are cold an merciless. They even believe that they will go straight to heaven if they die in a suicide bombing or action for Allah's course. They are fanatics. So my opinion is that the US must be very carefull of what they do, and which actions they take. But I agree, the people behind these unhumane actions must be lead to justice in some way. God help us all.
LesCanadiens
Deity
Well, boys, how do you all think the suggestions made in this thread would have played out had they been acted upon instead of what was really done?
LesCanadiens
Deity
A lot of people at the time thought the death toll would be much higher than it actually was. The WTC complex housed how many workers? Over 100,000? Something like that. If that many people had died, it would have been an act of genocide rather than terrorism. We didn't know the precise death toll and a lot of people were assuming the worst.
Had the attack happened at noon instead of early morning, the death toll would have been vastly higher. Or any time during normal business hours for that matter. But the attacks came before most people arrived for work, which reduced the death toll.
LesCanadiens
Deity
Yes, I know that. I was just pointing out that most people feared the worst. Thank you, Dr. Obvious.
Godwynn
March to the Sea
- Joined
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- 20,524
Wow, looking back this was a very wise statement.
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