Where does Russias sphere of influence end?

[red_elk]

Russia has no good diplomacy. Russian diplomats = spoke persons of generals. It works sometimes, obviously, but only because of military strenght.

Not agree here. Russia has good and old school of diplomacy and intelligence. The important thing that even very good diplomacy always has limited potential without military backup. Effectiveness of American diplomacy compared to, say, Spanish is much higher. It doesn't mean Spain has bad diplomats.

I don't mind it having its sphere of interest in the meaning of polish, german, french etc spheres of interest - that it places Russia has many ties with and is interested in what happens there.
But for Russia's leaders sphere of interest = vassal states.

It would be much better for both Poland and Russia, to have relations the same as Russia has with Japan. Not very good, but at least working, and much less emotional.
I can assure you that Poland, as sphere of interest, considered in modern Russia the same as Germany or Japan - we have neither wish nor possibility to "vassalize" Poland. Also, both countries must understand trade interests and security concerns of each other.

More or less agree with your other points.

 

[Oruc]

Unfortunatelly, no.
When it comes to Lithuania, despite lithuanisation, persecution and a couple of repatriation programs, Poles, while reduced from +60% to 20% in Vilnius, still constitute a majority of population in the region immidiately around it. These Poles are lively, self-aware and going strong.

They have not integrated? they should go to poland then if they do not like Lithuania.

 

[TheLastOne36]

They have not integrated? they should go to poland then if they do not like Lithuania.

Actually, its be interesting to see what goes on in these parts as i'm not sure if they'll integrete or immigrate or even declare independence (unlikely but still).

I can assure you that Poland, as sphere of interest, considered in modern Russia the same as Germany or Japan - we have neither wish nor possibility to "vassalize" Poland. Also, both countries must understand trade interests and security concerns of each other.

More or less agree with your other points.

imo it's impossible for Russia to "vassalize" central europe now, only eastern europe.

 

[Winner]

Might be having something to do with the fact that you have no meaningufdl (historical or cultural) place to expand? Nationalism was never about having colonies, but often about getting "our" land back.

Jesus, first learn what the term "nationalism" mean. Accordingn your definition, Russia the the most über-nationalist country on Earth, since it has expanded the most German and Poland are territorially microscopic countries compared to Russia - you just made an idiot of yourself even with your wrong definition

 

[Winner]

imo it's impossible for Russia to "vassalize" central europe now, only eastern europe.

"Now" is the important word.

Soon it will be 70 years since the Munich agreement. I am still not convinced that all Western Europeans have learned their lesson. EU in its present form is not strong enough as an organization to guarantee the safety and independence of any of its member states.

 

[Squonk]

They have not integrated? they should go to poland then if they do not like Lithuania.

Uh, You are aware they are autochtones there?

 

[Squonk]

Not agree here. Russia has good and old school of diplomacy and intelligence. The important thing that even very good diplomacy always has limited potential without military backup. Effectiveness of American diplomacy compared to, say, Spanish is much higher. It doesn't mean Spain has bad diplomats.

Russia often has influences in states which are dictatorships and are isolated. they'd cling to anyone willing to give them a hand. There are some traditionally russian-friendly states, but even they are now not so enthusiastic about it (vide Ukraine). When it comes to other states, as I've mentioned, russian "you can't do that, you are our sphere of influence" diplomacy has only served bad russian interests there.
I recall russian minister calling Armenia a russian stronghold or something in Caucasus, which caused much anger in Armenia itself. Moscow doesn't seem to treat even its friendly states as minor, but still, partners, but as pawns.

I can assure you that Poland, as sphere of interest, considered in modern Russia the same as Germany or Japan - we have neither wish nor possibility to "vassalize" Poland. Also, both countries must understand trade interests and security concerns of each other.

More or less agree with your other points.

Russia does not treat Poland as Japan or Germany. It does not say which organisations can they join and which not, doesn't threaten them with nukes, and doesn't build up anti-german or anti-japan frenzy, like it is case with Poland, Estonia and other states.

 

[Oruc]

Uh, You are aware they are autochtones there?

Whats that in English?

 

[Squonk]

sorry, autochtons, not autochtones.
indigenous people.

 

[Squonk]

well, exactly, Poles are are polonised Lithuanians and Belarusians, not immigrants.
Lithuania first switched to proto-belarusian language as its official one, and next to polish. All gentry, most of city inhabitants and much of rural population as well were speaking polish, not lithuanian, by XIX century. Lithuania was seen as a province of Poland, participated in polish uprisings etc. People in Wilno / Vilnius were considering themselves Lithuanians and had the same right to it as Lithuanians in Zmudz region,
apart from that they considered themselves Poles as well.
Then modern ethnic lithuanian nationalism emerged and demanded much of historical Lithuania, not only lands that were majorly lithuanian by language. And entire Lithuania was much polonised. First session of lithuanian parliament was held in polish, imagine that.
So Lithuania got divided: for western Lithuania (Zmudz region mostly) lithuanian language and tradition of independance prior to union with Poland became most important, while for eastern Lithuania polish language and history from XIV century onwards was more important. After ww2, eastern lithuanian, polish-speaking area was divided between Lithuania and Belarus (Belarus is part of historical Lithuania as well). A big deal of polish-speaking Lithuanians (Poles) were moved to Poland, but many remained and still form a majority of population in areas around the capital.

 

[Oruc]

A big deal of polish-speaking Lithuanians (Poles) were moved to Poland, but many remained and still form a majority of population in areas around the capital.

Well they should be removed you don't want a bunch of traitors in your country

 

[TheLastOne36]

Well they should be removed you don't want a bunch of traitors in your country

traitors?

that word is very wrong for this situation.

Poles have been living in some parts in lithuania even before lithuanians! Around 1000 years ago, the lithuanians lived in a very sparsely populated area. It was Poles who after the union, moved in and started really modernizing(to those times) lithuania. Those poles settled down in parts of lithuania that the lithuanians haven't even seen!

 

[Squonk]

Well they should be removed you don't want a bunch of traitors in your country

How are they traitors? In XIX century there was no Lithuania, and before the partages, when it existed, it was a state with polish as its official language, and being in union with Poland.

How could they betray what they weren't members or citizens of?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

How are they traitors? In XIX century there was no Lithuania, and before the partages, when it existed, it was a state with polish as its official language, and being in union with Poland.

How could they betray what they weren't members or citizens of?

Fifth column.

 

[Shekwan]

traitors?

that word is very wrong for this situation.

Poles have been living in some parts in lithuania even before lithuanians! Around 1000 years ago, the lithuanians lived in a very sparsely populated area. It was Poles who after the union, moved in and started really modernizing(to those times) lithuania. Those poles settled down in parts of lithuania that the lithuanians haven't even seen!

So basically they colonised Lithuania with Polish people? Hmm sounds strangely familiar and not all that innocent. But I guess they did modernise, how helpful of them. Did they call their towns plantations by any chance

 

[TheLastOne36]

So basically they colonised Lithuania with Polish people? Hmm sounds strangely familiar and not all that innocent. But I guess they did modernise, how helpful of them. Did they call their towns plantations by any chance

it wasn't like that. After the union was established, Polish people went to lithuania to get alot of cheap land. Where do you think those people went?

It's not like we enslaved the Lithuanians. We were one country, and people came from one part of the country to the other, sorta like the american gold rush, except the gold, being the land.

 

[red_elk]

Russia often has influences in states which are dictatorships and are isolated. they'd cling to anyone willing to give them a hand. There are some traditionally russian-friendly states, but even they are now not so enthusiastic about it (vide Ukraine).

I'd say having some influence to Iran, Venezuela, N.Korea shows strength of diplomacy, not weakness.

When it comes to other states, as I've mentioned, russian "you can't do that, you are our sphere of influence" diplomacy has only served bad russian interests there. I recall russian minister calling Armenia a russian stronghold or something in Caucasus, which caused much anger in Armenia itself. Moscow doesn't seem to treat even its friendly states as minor, but still, partners, but as pawns.

Example is unconvincing. What's wrong with calling Armenia Russian stronghold? It's the best friend and ally of Russia in Transcaucasia. It doesn't mean they must do everything Russia wants.

Russia does not treat Poland as Japan or Germany. It does not say which organisations can they join and which not, doesn't threaten them with nukes, and doesn't build up anti-german or anti-japan frenzy, like it is case with Poland, Estonia and other states.

I was talking about "vassalizing". Yes, Russia doesn't treat Poland as Japan or Germany, but neither Poland treats Russia well. Who is responsible?

 

[Oruc]

How are they traitors? In XIX century there was no Lithuania, and before the partages, when it existed, it was a state with polish as its official language, and being in union with Poland.

How could they betray what they weren't members or citizens of?

Its just what people say about Russians living in the Baltic, its the same thing but with a different bunch of Eastern Europeans

 

[TheLastOne36]

Its just what people say about Russians living in the Baltic, its the same thing but with a different bunch of Eastern Europeans

It's completely different.

Did Estonians learn Russians? Did the Estonians adopt russian orthadoxy? Did the Estonians want the Russians there? Did the Estonian leader sign a pact joining the two countries? Were the Estonians a very sparsely populated people who were living mostly in just one part of there land before the Russians came?

I guess you could say Selkirk's scottish colonization of the red river was also the same.

 

[Winner]

It's completely different.

Did Estonians learn Russians? Did the Estonians adopt russian orthadoxy? Did the Estonians want the Russians there? Did the Estonian leader sign a pact joining the two countries? Were the Estonians a very sparsely populated people who were living mostly in just one part of there land before the Russians came?

I guess you could say Selkirk's scottish colonization of the red river was also the same.

Uhm, ignore him, he's just provoking you