Who are "strong" leaders on Deity?

[ahcos]

Darius isn't ranked at the top on Deity, just like Vicky surely isn't. They are on pretty much every other difficulty, though, but that's mainly because of their FIN trait. Summoning a more experienced Deity player to confirm or prove me wrong...!

 

[Seraiel]

whew! it took me forever to check every one of those checkboxes

(oh...and Kubla>>>>>>>Genghis.........Genghis is one of the worst leaders in the game )

Ok, that's a little bit over, don't you think? Only difference between Kublai and Genghis is CRE vs. IMP and IMP is considered to be a strong trait for Deity. But ok, should have included Kublai in the Poll instead of Genghis.

Depends on the map entirely. On large or huge island maps, an early UU isn't going to do much good. I find Qin, Catherine, and Washington to be fairly strong on large maps. Capac on smaller ones.

India's not bad either, I really think the fast worker is most of the time hands down still the best UU in the game.

You wouldn't believe, how well Capac works out on large Maps, just turn on 17 Civs and Marathon You're btw one of the first and I think nearly the only one (except me) who finds Qin strong.

Did Justinian REALLY need two appearances, but no sully etc ? One of the fastest deity/normal conquests logged on S&T that I've seen came from sully!

It's pretty rough to include leaders like alex/charlie and then not have leaders like Bismark, Washington, or Roosevelt, who despite essentially playing without uniques still have solid traits and decent techs (compared to mysticism/hunting crap!).

Yer, Justinian had to make two appearances because he's just UEBER!

And Alex is in there because someone said the Phalanx was strong, I think about that otherwise now after this poll and the discussions, and Charly is in the poll because of ueberownage Landknecht rush and the Rathaus.

Bismark, Washington and Roosevelt aren't in the poll, because they're all considered weak, as they play without uniques. Should have included Sulei though, but thought Mehmed was the stronger one of the two, but Deity players seem to love Philosophical for the faster GP's.

---------

Btw, to sum up until now:

HA Rush = bulb Math for amazing chops -> overrun your enemy. Philosophical is a good trait for this, as it gets cheap libraries + faster GS.

List of Traits considered strong for Deity:

CRE > IMP > rest

Also strong are: EXP (faster Workers) and Philosophical (faster GP's) and PRO (good promotions) . That's a little bit different to what was considered strong in other threads imo, thought Darius with ORG / FIN had the best traits in the whole game, as he gets the best economy combined with a unit that can conquer mostly anything.

And we have:

Leading leader (of course) Mr. Huanya Capac of the Incans with a slight edge over Darius, then long time nothing, then Hannibal (!) who got more votes than Izzy (!) and is tied with Mansa atm. Zara is considered strong also (would not have thought that tbh) aswell as Lizzy who got 1 vote more than Viccy till now (interessting, so PHI > IMP?) . Ghandi is considered strong for the fast worker, which doesn't shine out on Marathon so much I guess, also strong are Julius (> Augustus) for his "cheap War Elephants without Ivory" and both the Egyptian leaders also got quite a few votes, guess I have to try a War Charriot Rush. Amazingly, Sitting Bull (PRO and PHI!) got only 2 Votes, even though he's the fastest Xbowrusher in the whole game. Also interessting, only few people voted for Shaka, though the Ikhanda probably is best UB besides the Rathaus.

And to Ahcos: Thx for your summary of starting Techs, guess that was interessting for many users reading this, but we still do not have a tie with Darius and Pascal. I just say IMMORTALs IMMORTALs IMMORTALs three times

Seraiel

 

[strijder20]

@Mylene: I thought HA Rush was a bad tactic unless you were Mongolia?

Not at all. My second Monarch win ( my first one was with Gilgamesh of Sumeria, the civilization I consider almost OP especially on the lower levels ) was on a challenge someone set up in Stories and Tales. It was a standard Pangaea, with Cathy, Alex, Shaka, Monty, Augustus and Genghis. I tried a few axe rushes against Genghis but failed horribly (I obviously restarted, I didn't try a few axe rushes in the same game). Then I got the bright idea of using HA's, and completely powned him. Their speed (preventing your opponent of whipping too many troops), withdrawal chance and decent strength make them into great units.
And I was Bismarck, by the way.

 

[ahcos]

I just say IMMORTALs IMMORTALs IMMORTALs three times

And i say "Deity" once. On Deity, you almost can NOT rush an AI with Immortals, they are basicly an anti barb unit. But they require a resource, unlike the Holkan. So, Pacal > Darius... on Deity, that is.

CRE > IMP > rest

Also strong are: EXP (faster Workers) and Philosophical (faster GP's) and PRO (good promotions) . That's a little bit different to what was considered strong in other threads imo, thought Darius with ORG / FIN had the best traits in the whole game, as he gets the best economy combined with a unit that can conquer mostly anything.

Na, IMP isn't better than any other trait except CRE, it's just that it is MORE useful on Deity in some circumstances. That doesn't make it a good trait (unless paired with something like CRE...), it's just significantly better. CRE is broadly accepted to be a top-trait on Deity, but FIN, EXP, ORG, PHI and IND are very good too. CHA is slightly less useful, but it's still a great economic trait, but less so on Deity, you often can trade for happiness very early. I'd set it on-par with PRO and IMP. AGG, which is one oft the best traits up to monarch/emperor (just axe rush everyone ...), is alot less useful on Deity and my personal least favourable trait. I prefer mounted warfare, and AGG doesn't help with that. Still, it's alot better than you might think at first glance, as AGG warriors promoted due to having cheap baracks make up for the lack of strategic resources often enough.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Charly is in the poll because of ueberownage Landknecht rush and the Rathaus.

Bismark, Washington and Roosevelt aren't in the poll, because they're all considered weak, as they play without uniques. Should have included Sulei though, but thought Mehmed was the stronger one of the two, but Deity players seem to love Philosophical for the faster GP's.

Trolololol .

Lcrap thing aside, I'd rather have a decent-to-strong trait combo and ok starting techs w/o a UU than a marginal UU, weaker traits, and worse starting techs.

 

[lymond]

Ok, that's a little bit over, don't you think? Only difference between Kublai and Genghis is CRE vs. IMP and IMP is considered to be a strong trait for Deity. But ok, should have included Kublai in the Poll instead of Genghis.

The checkbox point was a little stab at the conflict of the thread title and poll title. "Viable" and "Strong" mean very different things. Every leader in the game is "viable" on Deity and, therefore, such a poll is meaningless It's more about the competence of the human that uses them. Anyway, I think that point has been addressed already.

As for CRE vs IMP, and K vs. G, I'm not sure where you got the idea that IMP is some kind of great trait on Deity. CRE blows it away. The key is about getting off to a fast start. IMP is considered a mediocre or less trait on any level. It's only as good as the trait it partners up with and AGG is very much not a good partner trait.

Kublai has a much better chance of getting up a "viable" Keshik rush on Deity, which is pretty much what the Mongols are all about. Even without early horses, Kublai has a chance of keeping you in the game.

 

[Seraiel]

And i say "Deity" once. On Deity, you almost can NOT rush an AI with Immortals, they are basicly an anti barb unit. But they require a resource, unlike the Holkan. So, Pacal > Darius... on Deity, that is.

Why can't you rush with Immortals on Deity? Is it not possible to simply settle the 2nd City near horses and from then on to pump out Immortals, a unit so strong it could even beat the far more advanced Longbowman if attacking with 2:1 odds? Normal Archers get pwned by immortals and except Charriots which are only on par, there is not much an AI could do, or am I wrong?

 

[Seraiel]

The checkbox point was a little stab at the conflict of the thread title and poll title. "Viable" and "Strong" mean very different things. Every leader in the game is "viable" on Deity and, therefore, such a poll is meaningless It's more about the competence of the human that uses them. Anyway, I think that point has been addressed already.

Ok, so I messed up there. Question is not "which leader is viable for Deity" if anyone is if played properly, so like the title says, "Who are strong Leaders for Deity".

As for CRE vs IMP, and K vs. G, I'm not sure where you got the idea that IMP is some kind of great trait on Deity. CRE blows it away. The key is about getting off to a fast start. IMP is considered a mediocre or less trait on any level. It's only as good as the trait it partners up with and AGG is very much not a good partner trait.

Well, I got the idea from Ahcos (I think) and the many other users, that mentioned IMP leaders to be strong for getting more cities, which seems to be one of the biggest problems of Deity. I surely overrated AGG, thought that the exra promotion would make a big difference, as one could actually have shock-Axes from a simple Barracks.

Kublai has a much better chance of getting up a "viable" Keshik rush on Deity, which is pretty much what the Mongols are all about. Even without early horses, Kublai has a chance of keeping you in the game.

Ok, got that. CRE is the best trait for Deity as you can settle cities at better locations, get more land and this helps you very much in the early game. Thx!

Sera

 

[ahcos]

Why can't you rush with Immortals on Deity? Is it not possible to simply settle the 2nd City near horses and from then on to pump out Immortals, a unit so strong it could even beat the far more advanced Longbowman if attacking with 2:1 odds? Normal Archers get pwned by immortals and except Charriots which are only on par, there is not much an AI could do, or am I wrong?

WHAT? Lol, try Immortals vs. a fortified LB once. 2:1? Make it 4:1 ... i ran a test:

Immortal, promoted to Str 1, vs. an unpromoted (!) LB inside a city with 40% culture on flatland with 25% fortify bonus = 0,69% chance to win, 10% chance of survival (withdrawal)

Ofc this will be ALOT worse when the city is on a hill, has Walls (both pretty likely on Deity), has more culture and the LB is promoted.

On Deity, it's very unlikely that you won't face metal units, no matter how fast you are with your rush. The only way you can be sure to that you won't get slaughtered by Spears is to choke the AI, something that can be very tricky and dangerous to pull off properly. Plus, the AI will have to be near your position. And you still don't know if the AI doesn't settle right ON metal for example, in which case you couldn't prevent that it has metal ... nah, Immortal are just meh on Deity. They're great for every difficulty up to Immortal, though.

 

[Mylene]

I actually rushed succesfully with Immortals 1x on Deity
But it was poor Hatshy..shame on me!

 

[ahcos]

Someone actually did a succesful rush with Skirmishers on Deity or Immortal, not sure anymore. Doesn't make it a good offensive unit, does it?

 

[NapoleonThePig]

Don't forget that Immortals can receive defensive bonuses--they're very useful if you only have horses, as you can defend with them quite effectively.

I'm suprised neither Willem nor Nappy are on the list--both are very strong leaders with useful (at least) uniques. Willem in either human or AI hands is one of the fastest techers, with financial and cheap libraries, and Napoleon has solid early growth due to CHA and cheaper maintenance and courthouses due to ORG.

 

[Seraiel]

WHAT? Lol, try Immortals vs. a fortified LB once. 2:1? Make it 4:1 ... i ran a test:

Immortal, promoted to Str 1, vs. an unpromoted (!) LB inside a city with 40% culture on flatland with 25% fortify bonus = 0,69% chance to win, 10% chance of survival (withdrawal)

Ofc this will be ALOT worse when the city is on a hill, has Walls (both pretty likely on Deity), has more culture and the LB is promoted.

On Deity, it's very unlikely that you won't face metal units, no matter how fast you are with your rush. The only way you can be sure to that you won't get slaughtered by Spears is to choke the AI, something that can be very tricky and dangerous to pull off properly. Plus, the AI will have to be near your position. And you still don't know if the AI doesn't settle right ON metal for example, in which case you couldn't prevent that it has metal ... nah, Immortal are just meh on Deity. They're great for every difficulty up to Immortal, though.

Ok, I'm going to try an Immortal Rush on Deity now. Am I right with Worker -> Warrior till Size 2 -> Settler -> Worker -> Barracks and AH -> The Wheel -> Mining -> BW -> Writing?

 

[kossin]

HC, simply for ease of taking care of barbs.

Otherwise, it's map dependent.

 

[JammerUno]

ORG is still not going to be better than FIN, but FIN still isn't going to top IND, SPI, or PHI. So Ramesses, Hatti, Ghandi. Add to that Izzie and Sury and for my personal preference Pericles, I like CRE/PHI for the obvious cheap early libs, and the UB is pretty decent, +2 at 40 really helps the midgame.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, just tried out an Immortal Rush with Horses in the BFC (someone else said that this would be ok, as one sees them so early that one can replay to that point ), Buildorder Worker -> Barracks -> 2nd Worker -> Immortals and Research being AH -> The Wheel -> Mining -> BW.

Conquered up to 2 Civs already and think 3 are perfectly possible. Immortal Rush comes later, so AI probably has BW by that time, which is not bad because of Axemen or Spearmen but because of Slavery. AI seems to build Spearmen only in rare Situations as it seems, like when being attacked by Horse-Units, soi it's important to attack with enough Immortals (I propose 7 for the 1st target) to simply overrun two Cities in the 1st move. It has to be two cities, because one has to take out Horses / Copper if they have some and one does want to take out the capital, as it's usually large at that time and they will whip out so many Archers if one doesn't, it's not even funny. Neither the Spearman, Ahcos, as you said, nor the settling on the Ressource is the problem, as one can take the city holding the Ressource in a single turn, scouting is the key here.

Advantages over HC again being the better economic situation Darius has with ORG / FIN + fewer Units + better developed AI Cities as the attack comes later. And, the Immortal is way stronger than the Quechua, when attacking the 1st enemy, 2 of 4 Cities were on Hills, with HC a situation to regenerate the map, but Immortals have a 33% Chance against a fortiefied Archer in a hill city! (Quechua having something like 2%)

So don't say Immortal Rush is "meh" for Deity, it's perhaps not as good as the Quechua Rush as later usually means worse, but I consider it perfectly doable and advantages are as mentioned above.

Guess it's no tie anymore for your Holkan (just joking )

 

[ahcos]

So you play marathon and won ONE game that way, and still think that the Immortal is good for deity? Well, i give up. Immortal rushes ARE "meh" on Deity, and i say this because i've failed executing this type of rush several times already. Maybe i'm not the best player, but i'd still like to see someone rushing several (!!!) Civs on Normal/Pangea with Immortals, and that with the first map they roll etc. And that without choking, just like you did.

Maybe no one told you before, but Marathon changes things alot. I'm not saying that you can never ever perform Immortal rushes, but in MOST cases you'll get your ass kicked. Unlike the Holkan, the Immortal is situational. Holkan = decent anti barb. Immortal = sometimes it's good, sometimes it ain't.

And you didn't even take into account that the Immortal requires (!) horses. That alone makes them less useful x_x

If you really want to chariot rush, i'd consider WCs. You get those online quicker, and they're the better unit. This actually might work under normal settings on regular base, even on Deity, as you can use your first WC to choke and pillage the crap out of the AI, and as you get it quicker than Immortals... well, you get my point.

 

[Seraiel]

I won one game, but actually I've only played one, so that makes 100%

And if you like War Charriots (WC's ) so much, why do you dislike the Immortal? Basically it's an anti-Archer Charriot and early warfare is mostly about Archers.

But I see your points, starting out with Horses in the BFC is very situational, but for the games I'm playing, it doesn't matter, as I can reroll as often like I want to. And I'd actually never pillage an AI unless I was in a warfare where chances to win were low, I want to keep that well improved land, and pillaging with the first unit isn't a good idea either, as AI will be in full warmode than and simply outproduce you with Archers or whatever, it's better to wait and then Blitz imho.

But what do you mean by choking? Send me a PN about it in german if you want to, the only types of choking I know is where you settle a city to "choke of land", that's where the term "chokepoint" derives from, and the one where you murder somebody. I actually didn't do any of those, Lincoln and Asoka are still well alive in my prisons

 

[ahcos]

It's almost unavoidable to face some metal units in most games, and therefore WCs are better. They're also almost equal in fights vs. Archers, as they have the higher base str and ignore first strikes, which is kinda huge. They're also alot better vs. Chariots, a unit you'll get swarmed with in some situations when going for chariot rushes.

On top of that, you also get them faster (Research AH, find Horses, start building WCs while teching towards BW).

Regarding choking, i don't think we have to switch to german for that, and i think some other people might read here too so ... you can "choke" an AI by sitting in it's territory with warriors or any other unit, but warriors are most common because you have to start choking early: when you start to choke at a point where the AI can field better troops than Archers, you'll have to bring alot better troops than just warriors, and alot of them. So, choking begins early, and by choking you deny the AI the chance to

a) improve tiles - the workers won't move next to tiles where your warrior stands
b) settle additional cities - in most cases, the AI will be stuck building Archers

which, in the best case, leads to a very soft target as soon as you can go there with better troops. Watch some of AbsoluteZero's videos, he has brought choking to some sort of perfection ... watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccirEDr-qH4

 

[elmurcis]

my leader not in list? huh.. underrated?