Why are Americans so scared of communism/socialism?

[Yeekim]

But there is a definite line. Either workers control the means of production, or the capitalist oligopoly does. That alone is the measure of socialism in a society. All else is secondary; education, health care, political power, racial and gender relations.

The most important "mean of production" there is in today's age of information and service-based economies is probably know-how contained within people's skulls.

Although some intellectual property laws may somewhat restrict using it, I'd say this knowhow is controlled by the workers. Therefore, I conclude socialism has pretty much arrived, at least in many sectors of economy.

 

[Cutlass]

Ideal, absolute, and correct capitalism involves no government involvement in business,

Absolutely false. Such a thing could never stand.

and when the founding father's wrote the constitution, that was what they wanted to happen.

Again, false. That's not said anywhere. And, in fact, some interaction of government and business has always been true. If nothing else, government protects property rights and builds internal improvements. Further, in the 18th and 19th century tariffs were a major part of government policy to try and manipulate markets for various reasons.

Back then, the democratic-republican party didn't even believe there should be a NATIONAL BANK and there was heavy debate over this. I don't know what the national bank entailed, or where I stand on the issue, but I will say back then they wanted a lot less government, and a lot less government will help us get out of debt.

The main thing they wanted was a government that answered to them. And wasn't controlled by a foreign power for the good of the elite of that power. From the first the reason we have the Constitution that we do is that the Founding Fathers knew that they needed more federal government than the Articles of Confederation allowed for.

 

[Merkinball]

Again, false. That's not said anywhere. And, in fact, some interaction of government and business has always been true. If nothing else, government protects property rights and builds internal improvements. - Cutlass

How can you say this when half of what the government does violates private property rights when it comes to how businesses are operated. So much so, that they're trying to ban the use of salt in restaurants.

 

[eoc]

I don't know what is exactly communism, and by the way, which contry in the world is communism?
Don't tell me China is, I'm Chinese, I can definitely tell that China is not communism.

 

[mariogreymist]

There are no real communist countries in the world today. Cuba is as close as it gets, and they are pretty far removed from the principles of communism in many respects.

 

[NBAfan]

I don't know what is exactly communism, and by the way, which contry in the world is communism?
Don't tell me China is, I'm Chinese, I can definitely tell that China is not communism.

China is Totalitarianist state.

There are no real communist countries in the world today. Cuba is as close as it gets, and they are pretty far removed from the principles of communism in many respects.

Real communism is absolutely immpossible to achieve.

 

[Merkinball]

There are no real communist countries in the world today. Cuba is as close as it gets, and they are pretty far removed from the principles of communism in many respects.

It'll be a great day for humanity when socialists and communists alike realize why this is.

 

[cardgame]

Communism is against human nature, and is thus impossible to sustain without some Brave New World type of system. (I'm talking about the brainwashing thing in the beginning)

 

[willemvanoranje]

Communism is against human nature

How is that?

 

[cardgame]

Humans are inherently selfish and individualistic.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

How can you say this when half of what the government does violates private property rights when it comes to how businesses are operated. So much so, that they're trying to ban the use of salt in restaurants.

If you hear a conservative assert something ridiculous, you must first assume that it's false (much like when you hear Glenn Beck assert anything). Of course "they" aren't trying to ban the use of salt in restaurants. A single New York state senator introduced a bill to do so, but it's a ludicrous bill and it's never going to pass.

So therefore "the government" is "trying to ban the use of salt in restaurants."

Cleo

 

[Cutlass]

How can you say this when half of what the government does violates private property rights when it comes to how businesses are operated.

Overwhelmingly government regulations are about protecting private property. The difference is that the regulations that conservatives complain about are intended to protect private property of private individuals against the actions of businesses that seek to expropriate that private property.

It would be ironic if it weren't so, you know, common, that "conservatives and communists have exactly the same view of private property: Which is that it should be expropriated for "the public good".

 

[Merkinball]

How is that? - willem

Have you ever been outside and in the country and observed nature?

If you hear a conservative assert something ridiculous, you must first assume that it's false (much like when you hear Glenn Beck assert anything). Of course "they" aren't trying to ban the use of salt in restaurants. A single New York state senator introduced a bill to do so, but it's a ludicrous bill and it's never going to pass. - Cleo

If a liberal says that a crazy proposition is crazy just because a crazy politician proposes something it usual means that it will become law within forty years. Kinda like smoking bans, taxes on cigarettes, banning incandescent lightbulbs, expanding medicare, expanding medicaid, providing prescription coverage to medicare patients, amnesty for illegal aliens, affirmative action, legalized abortion.

The difference is that the regulations that conservatives complain about are intended to protect private property of private individuals against the actions of businesses that seek to expropriate that private property. - Cutlass

This doesn't make any sense. Only the government can expropriate private property as it sees fit. Businesses have to pay for it.

 

[cardgame]

look up the robber barons and tycoons of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

[spryllino]

Have you ever been outside and in the country and observed nature?

This is absurd. If humans do something, it is quite clearly within human nature. It is within human nature to by commmunist, and it is equally within human nature to be hypercapitalist.

The important thing is not what is natural, but what works. If Socialism is not human nature, it will inevitably fail, and therefore there is nothing to fear from it whatsoever, no? In fact, if you're right, there's barely any need at all to ever refute a socialist's arguments.

Moreover, there are plenty of things that aren't necessarily entirely natural that may be considered a very good idea, like booze, abortion, and solar panels (each of these depending on your perspective and situation, of course).

Besides, you don't discover human politics by going to the countryside and watching grasshopper society, or if you did, it would be a waste of time, as it would be very much easier to stay in town and watch human society.

 

[_random_]

Humans are inherently selfish and individualistic.

Couldn't that be used as an argument against democracy? If people are inherently selfish and individualistic, then why should they consider the good of the whole when selecting their leaders?

 

[Merkinball]

look up the robber barons and tycoons of the 19th and early 20th centuries. - cardgame

Oh, you mean the same robber barons that colluded with government to install regulations to prohibit competition? Kinda like how Goldman Sachs has been colluding with the government now? It's nice to be a fat cat with a progressive government. They'll work right with you to make sure the thin cats never become fat cats.

This is absurd. If humans do something, it is quite clearly within human nature. It is within human nature to by commmunist, and it is equally within human nature to be hypercapitalist. - spyrillino

Human nature does not equal human action. We perform many actions that are anti-thetical to our natural instincts.

The important thing is not what is natural, but what works. If Socialism is not human nature, it will inevitably fail, and therefore there is nothing to fear from it whatsoever, no? In fact, if you're right, there's barely any need at all to ever refute a socialist's arguments. - spyr

Yeah, except this isn't how socialism or communism works. When resistance develops it stifles and eliminates the resistance. It becomes totalitarian because of leftist fragmentation. What's even more is that socialism exists purely because it presumes that people are like animals.

Moreover, there are plenty of things that aren't necessarily entirely natural that may be considered a very good idea, like booze, abortion, and solar panels (each of these depending on your perspective and situation, of course). - spyrillon

That's fine, but none of these things are natural or instinctive like when coyotes take down a does fawn. My instincts tell me to bang as many chicks between the age of 15 and 22 as possible. But my intuition over-rides my natural urges. Human beings suppress their natural urges at different levels. But we're all still animals.

Besides, you don't discover human politics by going to the countryside and watching grasshopper society, or if you did, it would be a waste of time, as it would be very much easier to stay in town and watch human society. - spyr

I prefer grasshoppers. At least they're not faking it.

 

[Fr8monkey]

Actually, a lot of them are wrong. I won't comment on all of them, but I will on a few to show you that capitalism does work. If anyone wants to take it further, feel free.

Public Roads- I've heard somebody suggest on this forum that roads should be run by the private sector. I'm not 100% sure it would work, but in theory its possible. However, I'm not against public roads, because they are necessary for travel. Not socialist.

Police Department/Fire Department- Fits with national security. Not socialist.

Veterans Benefits- I'd have to say that they worked for what they got for working in the military. Many private jobs have benefits, the vets work for the government, I'm not against their benefits, its not socialism.

Welfare/Social Security- This is where we get socialist, and where capitalists should draw the line. A lot (Read, not all) welfare recipients choose not to work, in fact I know someone who doesn't work BECAUSE he gets more from welfare. This is wrong. For the elderly and Social Security? Well, how about you workers take the money you would've given for taxes and put it towards his own retirement. However, this means that people take the fruits of their labor. The elderly? Well, most of them have families, and those that don't can be supported by people who give willingly, not the government.

And don't even get me started on "Universal Health Care"

Sorry, I've bee working crazy hours.

The collection of taxes and spent on the citizens as a whole is the definition of socialism (a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole). Please tell me how the Gov. collects taxes and spends them to make roads and run Fire and police Departments isn't socialism?

Also, if you privatize everything like a good republican wants, do you want private companies to charge you for a drive to work or to the beach? If you are robbed, are you willing to give your credit card info to the police before they will help you? You can't get something for nothing.

 

[cardgame]

the POINT was that the corporations and robber barons exploited their workers. Terrible safety standards, very long work days, child labor, you name it.

THAT is why the govt intervened and legislated things like Child Labor Laws.

 

[Fr8monkey]

the POINT was that the corporations and robber barons exploited their workers. Terrible safety standards, very long work days, child labor, you name it.

THAT is why the govt intervened and legislated things like Child Labor Laws.

AND the 40 hour work week (as opposed to 12 hours a day for 6 days);
AND a livable wage (as opposed to 25 cents a day)