why do we go to school? @$*%*#!) seriously

[Tahuti]

Demotivating to achieve within the K-12 system for its own sake, but motivating to get to a place of higher learning where I could get vested with the tools of social change.

Society is pretty @#*&*@# up if the tools for social change are monopolised by universities.

 

[Hygro]

Society is pretty @#*&*@# up if the tools for social change are monopolised by universities.

it's where all the smartest experts exchange ideas, at least in principle. In practice that's not particularly untrue. It's not that universities monopolize the tools for change entirely but note I said "vested" with the tools of change, i.e. that on one hand I learned the tools of change at a university while on the other hand I earn the image of being a person who could be considered, after further proof and qualification, by the people already faithful to the system we are in, qualified or an authority.

Basically you need to find a way to get let into the club while also learning how to dismantle the club or broaden it to include everyone. Some schools or departments in schools get you in the club but don't teach you what the system actually is and can be, and some schools teach you all of it but don't get you in the club. Some do both.

One of the things I like about your country, and multiple people brought this up to me without my inquiring, is that prestige of the university as a brand is pretty much a nonfactor in society. It's cool to get to go to the school with the hotshot name but it's way cooler not to have to care.


Anyway, high school is only useful for the college game and for a few other things like being a place you can meet other high schoolers that your parents won't stop you from attending, and to learn a few things if you get lucky with a good teacher. But even my radical hippy town just ran a Citizen Moulding Factory® franchise on some basic level.

 

[Tahuti]

it's where all the smartest experts exchange ideas, at least in principle.

I do not deny that at all. However, it also sucks away intelligence from non-university settings, leaving all reasonably intelligent who are unable to access the university system relatively isolated. Universities pool intelligence though universities also serve as a vacuum cleaner of intelligence in non-academic settings.

 

[civver_764]

And you are sure those who opt out know what they are doing and that they wouldn't just hang in the streets or ghettos to cause trouble?

I don't see how this is relevant.

 

[Quackers]

Two crucial things you learn at school:

(a) the ability to read and comprehend what you're reading. It opens up a huge amount of knowledge to an individual,
(b) numeracy and mathematics. These things help improve your logical mind and allows you to understand scientific fields.

The rest is just filler.

 

[Kozmos]

Two crucial things you learn at school:

(a) the ability to read and comprehend what you're reading. It opens up a huge amount of knowledge to an individual,
(b) numeracy and mathematics. These things help improve your logical mind and allows you to understand scientific fields.

The rest is just filler.

I would say socialization is also a big factor. Even if you're the geeky sort, it is rather useful and I would hazard to say good for self-development.

 

[downtown]

But even my radical hippy town just ran a Citizen Moulding Factory® franchise on some basic level.

Is that really so bad?

 

[warpus]

Some school are not great; some teachers shouldn't be teachers;

Heck, a large portion of professors shouldn't be teaching - they never learned how to teach properly, and a lot of them suck at it.

I have no idea why they don't make university professors learn how to teach before they just dive into it. That and apparently you don't even have to be fluent in English to teach these days. It seems like postsecondary academia is full of people who are scratching eachothers backs, not giving a crap about the students.

Why are we trying to force people to do things they don't want to do?

Because society is full of ignorant people who don't know anything about the world or how it works as it is?

Most kids don't want to learn, they just want to play.

 

[Tahuti]

I would say socialization is also a big factor. Even if you're the geeky sort, it is rather useful and I would hazard to say good for self-development.

I'd say socialisation is perhaps the most important aspect of compulsory education. Homeschoolers are right to point out that maths and languages can be learned outside school. Socialisation cannot be learned from textbooks, however.

 

[Borachio]

Most kids don't want to learn, they just want to play.

And this is only natural! Play is how kids learn. It takes a real twisted sense of logic to think that making kids stop playing is going to make them learn better.

Play is what we should all be doing throughout our lives. It really is a most serious activity.

 

[Narz]

Aye, this.

Education is not about you just learning random factoids and memorizing them, the OP is right, that's what the internet excels at. Rather, you are being taught how to do things, how to produce things. You take those random factoids on the internet, stuff you can either memorize or not, and produce something completely different with them. Schools are there to arm you with the tools to do that, as Owen said.

Basically, schools exist to mold you into a productive human being, whatever that production might entail.

I agree that that's what schools "should" do but that's not often what they actually do.

I don't understand why people keep bringing up this whole "good students demonstrate a love for learning early on" stuff when it's been addressed so throughly as is. It doesn't matter if some kids demonstrate a love for math early on; I hated it in elementary and middle school but started to really like it in high school especially after taking physics and calculus. Mandating that I take geometry and algebra made that happen.

I'm not against mandatory learning of certain subjects but it should be at least 50/50 elective/mandatory not just 10% of less of the day for electives (woodworking, dance, etc.).

Also, by honing in on Cheezy's "experts in teaching" remark you guys are missing the point which was that children need to learn and they can do so better from a teacher than on their own or from their parents.

That's debatable. I learned all the math I needed until 6th grade at home by 2nd grade.

Anyway, I'm not anti-school (although some of the most impressive children I've met have been home-schooled but it's a huge effort to do so well, which requires more than just the parents but tutors & "guest" teachers & is much easier if you're financially well off).

I love learning, I friggin' hated school.

How I felt also.

Two crucial things you learn at school:

(a) the ability to read and comprehend what you're reading. It opens up a huge amount of knowledge to an individual,
(b) numeracy and mathematics. These things help improve your logical mind and allows you to understand scientific fields.

The rest is just filler.

I agree with that. And since I learned to love reading from my mom & numbers/stats from my dad I didn't feel I needed most of it.

Hopefully things have changed since I was in grade-school/high-school. I remember mostly memorizing random BS so I could pass tests, BS-ing my way thru papers, etc. When I did find a subject interesting often the teacher didn't go into the depth I would have wanted or we had to focus our attention on aspects that the teacher thought was critical rather than being able to explore from our own angles.

I'm talking about grade-school/high-school by the way, not college.

 

[Narz]

And this is only natural! Play is how kids learn. It takes a real twisted sense of logic to think that making kids stop playing is going to make them learn better.

Play is what we should all be doing throughout our lives. It really is a most serious activity.

Well put. The greatest geniuses of all time are always playing in their work, not just grinding away on rote tasks.

Problem is the false dichotomy between play & hard work. Between learning & fun. Kids love to learn, playing is how they learn. That is why kids (and all young mammals) play, to learn. The ability to play is directly coordinated with the ability to learn

Schools need to do more to nurture creativity rather than stifle it. The world of today & tomorrow needs it badly, we're not going to save the planet by simply being good worker bees.

Because society is full of ignorant people who don't know anything about the world or how it works as it is?

There's mandatory schooling in the US and still half the country doesn't "believe" in evolution. Schools don't necessarily cure ignorance.

 

[Joecoolyo]

I agree that that's what schools "should" do but that's not often what they actually do.

Yeah, this is how I often felt in high school. A lot of the information presented was just there to be taken at face value, without any of the productive elements behind it. While I still learned useful "tools" to use in the future, I felt like more emphasis on that could have helped a lot.

At university though, at least outside of intro classes (memorizing ID's is not history!), I've found that situation reversed, and for the better, frankly.

 

[civver_764]

Because society is full of ignorant people who don't know anything about the world or how it works as it is?

Most kids don't want to learn, they just want to play.

What's wrong with that?

 

[Hygro]

I do not deny that at all. However, it also sucks away intelligence from non-university settings, leaving all reasonably intelligent who are unable to access the university system relatively isolated. Universities pool intelligence though universities also serve as a vacuum cleaner of intelligence in non-academic settings.

I haven't found that to be true at all. I would say the opposite is more of a reality--that the intelligence you gain from the university learning experience spreads outside the university into friend groups, media, workplaces, cafes and bars, families, neighborhoods, etc.

Is that really so bad?

I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience, but if I were in charge with the sole goal of advancing the education of children I would cut back the total hours and make most of the format one that treats the kids with more grown up dignity while also basically letting them play most of the day.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I don't see how this is relevant.

It's relevant because education and jobs are important factors of getting people off the streets and not causing trouble.

Yeah, this is how I often felt in high school. A lot of the information presented was just there to be taken at face value, without any of the productive elements behind it. While I still learned useful "tools" to use in the future, I felt like more emphasis on that could have helped a lot.

At university though, at least outside of intro classes (memorizing ID's is not history!), I've found that situation reversed, and for the better, frankly.

You should also take note that the situation is not the same across the world. East Asian countries have very intense educational programs that produce high school graduates with numerous academic skills that are on par with senior university students in Western universities.

It's just that North American education system had been dumbed down steadily over the years for various reasons.

There's mandatory schooling in the US and still half the country doesn't "believe" in evolution. Schools don't necessarily cure ignorance.

What if education is not mandatory? Will we have more or less ignorant people?

 

[civver_764]

It's relevant because education and jobs are important factors of getting people off the streets and not causing trouble.

We could give them food and shelter instead.

 

[Narz]

What if education is not mandatory? Will we have more or less ignorant people?

I don't think mandatory education is necessarily a bad thing but schooling should be massively reformed.

 

[FriendlyFire]

- an opt-out principle in education is generally a bad idea, because nobody wants to live in a country full of ignorants

Isnt Dom3000 home educated ?
I guess its is good for Republicans and Libertarians.

 

[Goodfella]

That's debatable. I learned all the math I needed until 6th grade at home by 2nd grade.

So there's an exception. That doesn't mean it's not true for the most part.