GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
One would imagine if MobBoss was still active on this board.
Why Don't Progressives Do This?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Just something to watch out for. Gorbles clarified, and I misunderstood.
It's a bit of a Prisoner's Dilemma. If you push for diplomacy and get rebuffed, then when you snap you lose even more ground. It's high stakes!
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
The ones who call moderates “collaborators”, “fascist enablers”, and engaged in wokescolding on the basis moderates and centrists. As Zard said in passing in other threads, normal people don’t like being lectured to. Don’t be surprised when moderates and normal people push back harder when they’re tired of being lectured, their positions are invalidated, and wokescolded.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
But yet you can't provide any examples or evidence
That's because it's beside the point.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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But you keep misinterpreting, and then misrepresenting, some of those progressives. Take sanders: he was not allowed to put up. He tried. The DNC denied him the possibility of running nationally. Not once but twice the fixes done were clear. The first time with the super-delegates and the united media campaign against him. It wasn't "conservative" media mind you. The second time the media campaign again, and the DNC organizing all the other candidates so that they would quit and leave sanders contending with the "left" Warren" facing the lauded "non-socialist" Biden. Who was sold to party members as the electable one. And just managed to narrowly squeak by carried far more by others than by any merits of him.
Ajidica
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I, too, can find idiots and loudmouths on the internet.
I just don't let them influence my beliefs.
@innonimatu candidates of a similar political persuasion dropping out to improve their positions chances against other candidates who had been doing well because of vote-splitting hardly counts as a conspiracy; especially when it had been openly discussed in the mass media for literally months. Back when there were the split debates, even the least aware pundit was talking about how the large number of 'moderate' candidates would hurt the 'moderate' position.inno said:
Cloud_Strife
Deity
So you concede that there are no examples or evidence then
You're happy to intimate that there's a problem but the second I ask for examplea you shirk away...
Estebonrober
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This entire thread is normalizing bullfeathers from the right that indeed borders on authoritarian corporatism (is this a better label then fascism @Patine ?). The difference between a small subset of a political group being overly sensitive to rude jokes and another political group basically repressing the votes of the population, defunding what social safety nets are still left, and dismantling the administrative state to the point of complete ineptitude. Remember the very definition of the GOP at this point is a government small enough you can drown it in a bathtub. The part left alive seems to be the part that basically enacts modern slavery for private profit.
On the actual politicking of the moment? Why would I vote for the fake republican when I can get the real deal? So why are "centrist dems" running as fake republicans? The label democrat is frankly just as toxic to most of the population as republican so you are left running on policies. Progressive policies are popular basically everywhere, choose the ones that are popular in your district and run on those. When they ask you about abortion just dodge the question. Gun control? dodge it.
I agree there needs to be a rebranding of some of these policies like police reform, but fundamentally even when labeled badly the premise enjoys popular support. Of course gun control has enjoyed that kind of support for a generation and we still get nowhere.
There is a group within the dem party right now called justice democrats (AOC is one) that refuse corporate pac money and are generally denied any funding from the dem party until they have no choice. I believe there are very particular funding mechanisms that the parties have cornered and is part of why it is so hard to get a new party off the ground. As I recall its one of the Justice Democrats plans to remove those kinds of laws, thus opening the door for easier campaigning as independent.
Sorry a lot you guys went over today and I tried to address some of all of it.
On the actual politicking of the moment? Why would I vote for the fake republican when I can get the real deal? So why are "centrist dems" running as fake republicans? The label democrat is frankly just as toxic to most of the population as republican so you are left running on policies. Progressive policies are popular basically everywhere, choose the ones that are popular in your district and run on those. When they ask you about abortion just dodge the question. Gun control? dodge it.
I agree there needs to be a rebranding of some of these policies like police reform, but fundamentally even when labeled badly the premise enjoys popular support. Of course gun control has enjoyed that kind of support for a generation and we still get nowhere.
There is a group within the dem party right now called justice democrats (AOC is one) that refuse corporate pac money and are generally denied any funding from the dem party until they have no choice. I believe there are very particular funding mechanisms that the parties have cornered and is part of why it is so hard to get a new party off the ground. As I recall its one of the Justice Democrats plans to remove those kinds of laws, thus opening the door for easier campaigning as independent.
Sorry a lot you guys went over today and I tried to address some of all of it.
Zardnaar
Deity
@Zardnaar
And listening to a New Zealander talk about progressive politics in other countries ain't a fix either. Especially when it's based on conservative stereotypes and false equivalences.
I don't think you're getting my argument. The moral lecturing of "reach out and be nice to people" only (arguably) works when said lecturers don't suddenly decide to play scorched earth because it suits them. It is a position that is tenable solely because of said nominally-moral perch, and playing scorched earth reduces the point any further such lecturing to absolute dust. It's not just hypocritical, it's self-defeating. It's not even logically-consistent.
The actions of progressives in this instance don't actually matter (though if they did, they would at least be being consistent to themselves and their espoused positions on whatever hypothetical subject it was at the time).
If all you want to do is count the times that people are mean or rude to each other, that's just a numbers game. It doesn't infer much beyond a counter. These things should be taken contextually, as I am doing with both this thread and the very amusing amount of head-nodding it's getting. I could make one about a range of centrist opinions and get a very different pushback. I can literally guarantee it. Maybe less so now I've stated it outright, because some people (not you!) will dig holes to prove a point
The theory is the same regardless of country.
Veer to far left or right you get binned out.
Obviously USA is more conservative than NZ. Trump went hard right. Trump's goneburger barring shenanigans.
If the right refuses to co operate on basic levels you need to vote them out which gets back to winning Elections.
Jacinda ran as center left, her plus Greens got 57%.
Labour was a **** show when the trade unionists tried running it. 25%.
Win the center it's 101. The center relative to whatever country you live in.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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Corbyn would have won if he'd had the guts to campaign for brexit. Let the London bubble London go for the Liberal democrats.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Just the usual breathtaking ignorance, the far right have enjoyed success in America historically
Zardnaar
Deity
Numbers don't lie though Sanders never had a majority supporting him amount the Democrat voters.
His only hope was vote splitting and he's a weak candidate if he wins that way anyway.
Zardnaar
Deity
Perhaps but yeah ideologues paint themselves into corners.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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You really think there wasn't horse-trading? Late night phone calls of the kind:
- Who's got the better chance of stopping Sanders?
- Oh heck it's old dim Biden because he's the only one we can sell as deserving the black vote.
- Aw. So be it, we can carry even him against Trump.
The priority was stopping Sanders. It was pretty clear.
Patine
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But how many Americans do you REALLY think enthusiastically and vigorously support either "normalizing bullfeathers from the right that indeed borders on authoritarian corporatism," or a social reform of the nation based on demographic thinking and shallow "tack-on," solutions, rather than wholistic and deep-seated approaches to American social issues, as opposed to Americans who just want political leaders to deal with pragmatic and long-neglected issues, and end sensationalist, hyperbolic, and incendiary politics dredging up hate, division, and lack of governability within the nation far worse than it was before for the short-term political gain of two crooked, criminal, lying, and treasonous political, both without true care for the long-term, and to have only the choice between an idiot from each of these two parties because all other Third Party and Independent candidates are institutionally marginalized. You might be surprised at the REAL viewpoints of a very large number of American voters who are sick of the political circus in their country. The voting demographic you probably never hear about because they don't come up in the questions asked by American political polls. So, it's only votes you have to judge by - without true knowledge of my many REALLY did vote for Trump or Biden, and just assume that all those Trump voters voted such because for full, complete, frothing agreement with the Trumpist agenda, and are automatically howling bigots and authoritarians, and those voting for Biden must be Progressives, and support all Progressive Social Reform ideals as the HIGHEST priority of policy, when you probably misunderstand how many votes lack such support or conviction and are mostly because better options for their needs have no candidates on the ballots, or ones guaranteed by the rigged system to never win. Resignation and despair, over conviction and enthusiastic of Trump or Biden. If there is truly a "silent majority," that would probably be them.
Zardnaar
Deity
Up to a point. You see anything not woke as right though. Go back to 50's-70s alot of right wingers were doing modern left wing things and several lefties were racist.
You can't lecture on white privilege, woke shaming etc pitching your policies to the largest ethnic group in the country and then be surprised they don't support you.
Jacindas a liberal and she doesn't act like that in a vastly more progressive country than the USA.
If it doesn't fly here WTH would it work in the USA?
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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It would take a few years (Sanders is too old) but it's doable! M4A is popular. That's why the main effort of both parties is not to have it on the programnme of the approved candidates!
No. It's just a distraction from the conversation that I want to have. The comment was originally made to Gorbles, not to you, and it was because I misunderstood the point they were making.
Zardnaar
Deity
Sanders wasn't a member of the Dems he was trying to hijack their party.
If only the GoP did that with Trump early on heh?
