Why Don't Progressives Do This?

[Angst]

To the people here who did not get my previous post, politics is all about perception. My lists show a narrowing definition of these political ideologies. If you don't meet any of those criteria, you risk being questioned by your "own kind". That's how absurd politics is getting, at least in America.

Sorry for not getting it. I have to say tho, from my impression, the harsh internal criticism is far more present on the left than on the right. Put a 2nd wave feminist and a 3rd wave feminist in a room and they are usually at each other's throats within the hour (I'm overstating this, but it's my own anecdotical impression from mingling both with left- and right wingers). The right seems much better at looking past particular differences because they have a much more concrete orientation towards a political wing as an enemy; the left seems much more purist.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sorry for not getting it. I have to say tho, from my impression, the harsh internal criticism is far more present on the left than on the right. Put a 2nd wave feminist and a 3rd wave feminist in a room and they are usually at each other's throats within the hour (I'm overstating this, but it's my own anecdotical impression from mingling both with left- and right wingers). The right seems much better at looking past particular differences because they have a much more concrete orientation towards a political wing as an enemy; the left seems much more purist.

Rights far more focused, lefts a collection of different interests and priorities.

I care more for the economic side of things than social justice.

Fix the first the second falls into place easy enough.

 

[Angst]

For the record, I also think proper economic policy is a necessary path towards equality, while social justice programs that ignore that are mostly symptomatic solutions that don't deal with the problem by the root. It's good to do other things, but it has to also include economic solutions.

 

[Farm Boy]

Money is never easy enough.

 

[Zardnaar]

For the record, I also think proper economic policy is a necessary path towards equality, while social justice programs that ignore that are mostly symptomatic solutions that don't deal with the problem by the root. It's good to do other things, but it has to also include economic solutions.

Social justice side if things is easy, doesn't really cost money.

They can brush the big picture stuff under the carpet or put it in the to hard basket.

 

[Akka]

Can I ask how a thread about what progressives should do to improve their results globally basically turned into a white ethno-state advocation thread?

Tribalism, immigration, housing costs. . . I could pull this same talk off of VOA pretty easy.

Make your tribe bigger. (Hint: its all of earth)

You kinda answer your own question by immediately considering that tribalism and housing costs are some sort of alt-right flag. You just illustrate what was said in the thread.

Modern societies certainly don't meet the anthropological or sociological definitions of tribal which refers to a type of social organisation at a certain stage of development.

Irrelevent.

Been reading a bit though and psychologists do sometimes talk about tribes and tribalism in relation to social identity theory. It doesn't really come down to much more than that we form group loyalties and often react to people on the basis of group membership.

"Group membership" is the fundamental of all human societies. It might not "come down to much more", but that's already pretty huge in itself. Also, it highlight the important point, that it's a fundamental working of humans that comes from the millions of years spent in actual tribes.

It seems to me that using the words tribe and tribalism in this sense when they already have more widely known and long-established uses is just lazy.

And it seems to me you're just trying to find a way to not like the point.

Akka, the desire to live in communal or group cannot be translated as "tribal".

Depends on what you mean by "translated". We certainly do desire to live in group because we evolved as tribal animals. Snakes don't care about groups because they didn't.

A global community itself is a community, that don't discriminate or dissect other by their skin color, belief or genealogy.

I admit I don't really see your point here.

As an Armenian who live in France, out of every people or poster in this forum, I was hoping you can sympathize and relate more with this concept/topic better than anybody else.

I'm not Armenian. My grandfather was, and I certainly have some lingering sympathies for Armenia, but I'm French first and foremost.
I also don't really see what's the relation with the fact that humans are tribal.

 

[Zardnaar]

You kinda answer your own question by immediately considering that tribalism and housing costs are some sort of alt-right flag. You just illustrate what was said in the thread.

Irrelevent.

"Group membership" is the fundamental of all human societies. It might not "come down to much more", but that's already pretty huge in itself. Also, it highlight the important point, that it's a fundamental working of humans that comes from the millions of years spent in actual tribes.

And it seems to me you're just trying to find a way to not like the point.

Depends on what you mean by "translated". We certainly do desire to live in group because we evolved as tribal animals. Snakes don't care about groups because they didn't.

I admit I don't really see your point here.

I'm not Armenian. My grandfather was, and I certainly have some lingering sympathies for Armenia, but I'm French first and foremost.
I also don't really see what's the relation with the fact that humans are tribal.

We cut through a lot if crap with the concept of "kiwi".

What ethnotribe is that.

Kiwi first, NZer second, Pakeha 3rd, NZer of European descent 4th.

 

[Angst]

Social justice side if things is easy, doesn't really cost money.

They can brush the big picture stuff under the carpet or put it in the to hard basket.

That's the thing, I don't even know if social justice things are easy, nor that they are cheap. Picking one particular issue, correcting and removing any certain form of microaggression. It's a massive amount of work that counteracts a default cultural behavior through behavioral correction and it's just very inefficient, so either it's really hard or less hard but very expensive.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's the thing, I don't even know if social justice things are easy, nor that they are cheap. Picking one particular issue, correcting and removing any certain form of microaggression. It's a massive amount of work that counteracts a default cultural behavior through behavioral correction and it's just very inefficient, so either it's really hard or less hard but very expensive.

Can't regulate microaggression. That's a cultural thing and will just take time. It will either happen or won't.

 

[AmazonQueen]

You kinda answer your own question by immediately considering that tribalism and housing costs are some sort of alt-right flag. You just illustrate what was said in the thread.

Irrelevent.

"Group membership" is the fundamental of all human societies. It might not "come down to much more", but that's already pretty huge in itself. Also, it highlight the important point, that it's a fundamental working of humans that comes from the millions of years spent in actual tribes.

And it seems to me you're just trying to find a way to not like the point.

Depends on what you mean by "translated". We certainly do desire to live in group because we evolved as tribal animals. Snakes don't care about groups because they didn't.

I admit I don't really see your point here.

I'm not Armenian. My grandfather was, and I certainly have some lingering sympathies for Armenia, but I'm French first and foremost.
I also don't really see what's the relation with the fact that humans are tribal.

A tribe is a specific type of group. People were born into and died in tribes for the most part, although adoption or entry by marriage could happen. In that its quite unlike modern social groups that have much more nebulous memberships and that people may change between throughout their lives.

 

[Angst]

Can't regulate microaggression. That's a cultural thing and will just take time. It will either happen or won't.

That's the point. Or, well, you can, but it's incredibly tough and expensive to do (if done with money), and then I start asking whether the money and effort is best used just to do some better social programs.

 

[Joij21]

I don't look at NZ as a white ethnostate but as a partnership between the crown and Maori.

Yes a partnership in which you stole their land for the crown and refuse to allow them to be an independent nation onto themselves yet still claim soveriegnty over them while at the same time claiming you ended their slavery only to have your red coated troopers rape and kill them to bring them under said crown's empire.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's the point. Or, well, you can, but it's incredibly tough and expensive to do (if done with money), and then I start asking whether the money and effort is best used just to do some better social programs.

Pretty much. I suspect a lot of online people don't remember the 80s or 90s so they can't see the progress made.

1993 gay guy at school came out of closed. Got testicles jumped on 3 days in hospital.

Another cross dresser got stripped, beaten and thrown in the pool in front of 400 people laughed at for wearing a bra underneath his uniform.

Another got treated as a rugby ball and thrown into a urinal and got rucked like said rugby ball.

School 1992-94.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes a partnership in which you stole their land for the crown and refuse to allow them to be an independent nation onto themselves yet still claim soveriegnty over them while at the same time claiming you ended their slavery only to have your red coated troopers rape and kill them to bring them under said crown's empire.

Not the 1860s anymore. Family wasn't even in the country.

It's to mixed for a Maori independent nation. There's not really any Maori majority areas outside if maybe some tiny towns.

Those areas don't have anything like electricity generation so not really viable independent state anyway.

They're also tribal so not Maori but Nga Puhi or whatever.

Like it or not we're stuck with each other so have to figure that out.

 

[GenMarshall]

You said it's happening, however I don't see it happening,

A quick stroll on the OT section of this forum you can see a few examples. Most noteabally between Patine, Zard, and Cloud. It’s just a small inkling, hop over to the political sections of Reddit and Twitter and you’ll see more toxic behavior. Another example, if you want to go outside the net, there is a case where BLM protesters surrounding a restaurant patron, who’s minding her own business, demanding that she raise her fist or a girl gets wokescoled just because she wore a dress to the prom.

There are even people on other boards (you’re only gonna see this on places on Twitter or Reddit) where the left accuses a person for being sexist or racist if they don’t like a certain film, when the reality the person hates the film due to bad writing.

If you can’t see it, then I cannot help you.

it's a self victimization that's used as what aboutism tactic whenever an issue that related to racism toward people of color or immigrant were brought up. The great example is the quoted text below:

Blatantly false that it’s “self-victimization” and spare me the “whataboutism”. It doesn’t address my points that I brought up with regards of the toxic elements from the far left demonizing and wokescolding people who rest in the middle of the political spectrum. Nowhere in my point did I stated issues related to opposition towards racism or immigration, my point I’m bringing up is the toxic atmosphere displayed by the far left that not only would provide materials for their “SJW Cringe” compilations for the Anti-SJW community, but would leave a sour taste to a moderate or anyone who’s not politically active and would side with the right. I’m calling it out because I don’t want to see moderates fly into the arms of the Alt-right when they see toxic behavior coming from the left, both online and offline.

This text actually quite mind-blowing, he concluded that standing up for minorities and supporting diversity are effectively anti-white.

Ask an average Caucasian person on the street, what white is. Most people do not ascribe to the social justice definition of white and use the commonly held definition that white is a person that has fair or light skin with features typical of Europeans. Your typical anthropologist and census definition. Most are unaware on whiteness studies nor the concept of white privilege. Though most will take offense when being told they they have white privilege because most people define privilege as a synonym for luxury, the rich elite (eg. Privileged circumstances related to wealth).

Here’s the thing, many on the Alt-right sees, what you’ve described as Intersectionality, as a mix of oppression olympics and a totem pole/hierarchical pyramid. To them if you have more oppressed characteristics, the higher on the totem pole you are (eg. The higher you go on the hierarchical pyramid). When they talk about standing up for minorities and diversity, they see it as anti-white. Because according to their framework, whites are at the bottom of the intersectionalist pyramid. Thus they see diversity as a way to push whites out of the way and create a tyranny of the minority.

Remember, not everyone has gone to colleges and universities and not everyone who went to college has taken critical race theory courses. So the concept that race is constructed or whiteness studies is completely foreign to the majority of people.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The worst that can happen from a progressive is you get "Wokescolded".

The worst that can happen from a conservative is that they could either directly contribute to your death, support your discrimination or turn a blind eye to your community's suffering.

But you want us to take you seriously @GenMarshall right?

 

[Ajidica]

A quick stroll on the OT section of this forum you can see a few examples. Most noteabally between Patine, Zard, and Cloud. It’s just a small inkling, hop over to the political sections of Reddit and Twitter and you’ll see more toxic behavior. Another example, if you want to go outside the net, there is a case where BLM protesters surrounding a restaurant patron, who’s minding her own business, demanding that she raise her fist or a girl gets wokescoled just because she wore a dress to the prom.

There are even people on other boards (you’re only gonna see this on places on Twitter or Reddit) where the left accuses a person for being sexist or racist if they don’t like a certain film, when the reality the person hates the film due to bad writing.

If you can’t see it, then I cannot help you.

Again, the internet is full of loudmouths and idiots. Why do you let them determine your political beliefs?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Ask an average Caucasian person on the street, what white is. Most people do not ascribe to the social justice definition of white and use the commonly held definition that white is a person that has fair or light skin with features typical of Europeans. Your typical anthropologist and census definition. Most are unaware on whiteness studies nor the concept of white privilege. Though most will take offense when being told they they have white privilege because most people define privilege as a synonym for luxury, the rich elite (eg. Privileged circumstances related to wealth).

Here’s the thing, many on the Alt-right sees, what you’ve described as Intersectionality, as a mix of oppression olympics and a totem pole/hierarchical pyramid. To them if you have more oppressed characteristics, the higher on the totem pole you are (eg. The higher you go on the hierarchical pyramid). When they talk about standing up for minorities and diversity, they see it as anti-white. Because according to their framework, whites are at the bottom of the intersectionalist pyramid. Thus they see diversity as a way to push whites out of the way and create a tyranny of the minority.

Remember, not everyone has gone to colleges and universities and not everyone who went to college has taken critical race theory courses. So the concept that race is constructed or whiteness studies is completely foreign to the majority of people.

They literally used to think the Irish weren't white, that they were an inferior "sub species" of human that bridged the gap between "blacks" and "anglo-saxons", whiteness is absolutely 100% constructed and if you don't believe me go and read some of the founding father's earlier beliefs that germans, the french and the russians weren't white either

 

[El_Machinae]

I also come from stock that used to be thought of as not white, so can actually trace the history of when my ancestors started to be treated differently as the definition expanded

The worst that can happen from a progressive is you get "Wokescolded".

Depends. I have literally seen someone have their employer contacted by someone who was overly zealous in their wokescolding*

*I'd not seen this word before this thread. I can't wait to watch it mutate over time

Edit: I should clarify, I don't object that sometimes this tactic will be necessary. I just recognize that sometimes they will be collateral damage if it's applied too zealously

 

[GenMarshall]

Again, the internet is full of loudmouths and idiots. Why do you let them determine your political beliefs?

Yet I recognize that it' fodder for the Anti-SJW community for their thousands of "SJW cringe" compilations that over saturates YouTube.

You ask "why should I let them determine my political beliefs?" I respond with, so others behind me don't fall into the rabbit hole of the Alt-Right pipeline. Does it determine my political beliefs at present? No, but I still call out toxic behavior when I see it. Because I see it as doing more harm to progressive causes and the Anti-SJW community and Alt-Right circles exploits that toxic behavior for their own means and as materials for their recruitment.

The worst that can happen from a progressive is you get wokescolded.

It's dependent upon its delivery. There's a différance between disagreeing with the person and leaving them alone and aggressively chastise and berating because the person did not change their profile picture to a black square. Case in point where BLM protesters surrounded a restaurant patron minding her own business and being demanded to raise her fist. You can laugh all you want about that incident, it paints a bad picture to people outside progressive camps.

The worst that can happen from a conservative is that they could either directly contribute to your death, support your discrimination or turn a blind eye to your community's suffering.

I presume you're referring to social conservatives and you only see those people who call for those sorts of things (death, support your discrimination or turn a blind eye to your community's suffering) from the far-right and the fringe right. I don't see any of the rhetoric coming from conservatives who sit on the center-right spectrum. I know MobBoss would say things that would boil your blood (And likely browbeat you do death has he did to many liberal posters in the past), but he wouldn't call for rounding minorities up in concentration camps.

They literally used to think the Irish weren't white, that they were an inferior "sub species" of human that bridged the gap between "blacks" and "anglo-saxons", whiteness is absolutely 100% constructed and if you don't believe me go and read some of the founding father's earlier beliefs that Germans, the French and the Russians weren't white either

Did I state that I don't believe whiteness is constructed? Nowhere in my point did I stated that. I made a point that most people aren't aware of it and simply go with the anthropological definition instead of the social construct defenition. I'm sure what the founding fathers said back in the 1700s, would be the same was said by Frederick the Great, King George III, King Louis XVI, and Catherine the Great.