Why is there islamic fundamentalism?

[warpus]

There are Hindu fundamentalists.
There are Christian fundamantelists.
There are Jewish fundamentalists.
There are Muslim fundamentalists.
...

Fundamentalists over here, fundamentalists over there.. Fundamentalists everywhere!

 

[nivi]

And then there's Israel.

Yup.

Without Israel fundmentalists Muslims would be to busy fighting themselves, and the world wouldn't care less.

 

[Princeps]

Lets blame everyone else but islam for islams actions.

Why do we blame Islam for American actions?

Why do we blame Muslims for Israel's war crimes?

I quess its to much to ask people own up and take responceability.

The British have not taken responsibility for their hidious crimes in India, have they?

Has the west taken responsibility for its imperialism against the middle eastern countries?

Trans-atlantic slavery was blessed by the POPE! Has the papacy taken responsiblity?

No.

Islam is the way it is because of muslims they can not blame the west.

This is like saying that the victim is responsible for the actions of the bully, or the raped is guilty, not the rapist!

US, and rest of the west, has screwed the middle east up, you cannot blame muslims for the misery imposed on them by the west.

Without Israel fundmentalists Muslims would be to busy fighting themselves, and the world wouldn't care less.

As I said, extremist are the result of war. Without Israel there would not be as many extremists.

 

[skadistic]

Right its all Israels fault and has nothing to do with islam being a violent religion led by warmongering idiots.

 

[Verbose]

Right its all Israels fault and has nothing to do with islam being a violent religion led by warmongering idiots.

As opposed to absolving Israel from any responsibility whatsoever for the situation.

There are a lot more warmongering Israeli leaders these days. Obviously because warmongering works for Isreal. Everytime the Arabs have tried it they get creamed.

It's just that some Americans can look at Israel all the time without really seeing it. I'm pretty sure even a lot of Israelis find it slightly uncomfortable.

And these discussions on the CFC are useless anyway.

Too many posters here mistake trying to work out what the other side is thinking with weakness.
Not trying to do that might make you dedicated, which is a strength, but it also tends to make you needlessly ignorant, which makes you stupid.

 

[sonorakitch]

Why do we blame Islam for American actions?

Why do we blame Muslims for Israel's war crimes?



The British have not taken responsibility for their hidious crimes in India, have they?

Has the west taken responsibility for its imperialism against the middle eastern countries?

Trans-atlantic slavery was blessed by the POPE! Has the papacy taken responsiblity?

No.



This is like saying that the victim is responsible for the actions of the bully, or the raped is guilty, not the rapist!

US, and rest of the west, has screwed the middle east up, you cannot blame muslims for the misery imposed on them by the west.



As I said, extremist are the result of war. Without Israel there would not be as many extremists.

Babble babble babble. Typical venom.

You obviously don't understand the crux of the problem, naziassbandit. As more thoughtful members have pointed out today, this rise of fundamentalism is not really new at all, just more assertive. The prevalance of western culture is primarily reponsible for the rise in fanaticism in the ME. Perhaps the greatest fundamentalis of all (at least recognized here in the west), Osama bin Laden, did not form Al Qaeda because of Israel. He, and the others, formed Al Qaeda to establish a caliphe Islamic super-state with a vehemently fundamentalist culture, free from the west. Read http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185562 for a little example of this.

To claim that America has created islamic fundamentalism assumes fundamentalism in the ME is a new phenomenon. The fact is islamic fundamentalism has been around for at least 500 years.

So may I compare you to the oft-said simplistic thinker GW Bush?

~Chris

 

[Princeps]

You obviously don't understand the crux of the problem, naziassbandit.

I see, you only manage to undermine your own arguement by flaming at the poster.

As more thoughtful members have pointed out today, this rise of fundamentalism is not really new at all, just more assertive.

No it isn't exactly new... have I made such claims?

The prevalance of western culture is primarily reponsible for the rise in fanaticism in the ME.

Nope. Strife is. Conflict results in extremist believes. Middle eastern cultures have gone through much struggle and conflict from ever since the Mongols laid waste to Mesopotamia. Also, is it so hard to believe that the Muslims actually oppose the west because... not so long ago... they were under naked western imperialism... European hegemony... and so much more today... Israel, Iraq - there are hundreds of thousands of western troops in the very heart of the muslim world.

Perhaps the greatest fundamentalis of all (at least recognized here in the west), Osama bin Laden, did not form Al Qaeda because of Israel. He, and the others, formed Al Qaeda to establish a caliphe Islamic super-state with a vehemently fundamentalist culture, free from the west.

Osama bin laden actually has quite legimate goal (not that I defend him, he's methods are quite useless, reckless...) to drive the US out from the middle east. If you happen to forget, US is responsible for (or could have prevented, but instead supported/blantantly ignored) much of the middle eastern conflict today and in the recent past... the Armenian genocide, Israeli imperialism and oppression, fascist dictatorships, arms trade, economic explotation of various forms, theocratic looney dictatorships... Why is Osama's goal so illegimate?

Also, don't take the extreme rhetoric so literally, I'm sure even Osama has more pragmatic goals. Osama's main enemy, after all, is the soverign family of Saudi Arabia, who are dictators, who squander huge amount of state money for their own luxuries, who impose tyrannical law... and are supported by the US, no less.

To claim that America has created islamic fundamentalism assumes fundamentalism in the ME is a new phenomenon.

I haven't made any such claims, now have I?

I meant that the west has screwed up the middle east so many times that it is obvious that they'd be hated by the muslims (and many other). Islamic fundamentalism wasn't solely the result of Western actions. There were other factors too.

The fact is islamic fundamentalism has been around for at least 500 years.

Actually, I'd say about 700 years... of course, there are different variations of extremism, and in fact, simply calling it "extremism" is over-simplification.

So may I compare you to the oft-said simplistic thinker GW Bush?

That would be a grave insult to my intelligence.

 

[Red Door]

There are Hindu fundamentalists.
There are Christian fundamantelists.
There are Jewish fundamentalists.
There are Muslim fundamentalists.
...

Fundamentalists over here, fundamentalists over there.. Fundamentalists everywhere!

Quoted for truth, every religion has fundamentalist, search the movie Jesus Camp for a great example.

 

[Quasar1011]

And then there's Israel. Which is a bit of a special case, as perceptions in the west and the ME over it diverges so widely. To Mideasterners it's simply THE example of western colonialism — inserting an entire state of our own in their midst, on top of the holiest sites of all our religions to boot. That's one hell of a provication.

The holiest sites in Islam are Mecca and Medina, neither of which are in Israel. That Jerusalem is a holy city of Islam, is a recently created myth. Check out the following links:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf20.html


http://christianactionforisrael.org/jematter.html

 

[amadeus]

There are Hindu fundamentalists.
There are Christian fundamantelists.
There are Jewish fundamentalists.

And how many of those have tried attacking the United States?

 

[warpus]

And how many of those have tried attacking the United States?

2,483. What's your point?

 

[CaptainF]

And how many of those have tried attacking the United States?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tim McVeigh was a bit of a Christian loon wasn't he?

Then there is that one Rudolph character who went on a gay bar bombing spree, as well as the '96 Atlanta Olympics.

 

[skadistic]

McVeigh didn't do it for god or in the name of god.

 

[CaptainF]

McVeigh didn't do it for god or in the name of god.

He did it, in his own words because he was pissed at what the government did at Waco. He was also raised a devout Catholic.

The Eric Robert Rudolph character, definately a Christian, and definetly a psycho.

 

[bhsup]

He did it, in his own words because he was pissed at what the government did at Waco. He was also raised a devout Catholic.

But what does the first part of that have to do with the second part? Just because someone is raised in a particular faith doesn't mean any evil deed the commit is necessarily religiously motivated, or in the name of that faith.

 

[nihilistic]

Seeing the resurgence of this ideology, i wonder why? i mean the West is certainly a model. Who comes up with this stuff and why?

Well, the same reason that fundamentalists of other religions are popping up. In the modern world, out of the three qualities of "faith", "reality", and "consistency", it is clear that one can choose at most two. For those who identy too strongly with faith and consistency, the modern reality is simply too much to bear, so many interpreted "reality" as a test to the "consistency" they hold to their "faith". Therefore, they reject reality.

If your question is why are these people going on suicide attacks, well, that flows from the last paragraph too.

 

[sonorakitch]

I see, you only manage to undermine your own arguement by flaming at the poster.

It was your name bud.

No it isn't exactly new... have I made such claims?

Your quote from your previous post indicates that the US and the West has driven Islam to react this way.

US, and rest of the west, has screwed the middle east up, you cannot blame muslims for the misery imposed on them by the west.

The US has been involved in the Near East for about 60 years, to the extent of creating tension. So you did make such a claim...even if you didn't mean too.

Nope. Strife is. Conflict results in extremist believes. Middle eastern cultures have gone through much struggle and conflict from ever since the Mongols laid waste to Mesopotamia. Also, is it so hard to believe that the Muslims actually oppose the west because... not so long ago... they were under naked western imperialism... European hegemony... and so much more today... Israel, Iraq - there are hundreds of thousands of western troops in the very heart of the muslim world.

You really do need to read up on the subject. Al Qaeda's attack in 2001 had a very simple reason that is not understood by many (including you). Drive the wedge. The fundamentalists despise the prevelence of western culture in their societies, despise the western armies, despise every association that modern Islamists covet. If they could successfully enrage America enough, a retaliation was certain. This retaliation would turn public opinion within muslim society against the West, thus uniting the fundamentalists and the more moderate wing of Islam. This unity would dispel the pro-West regimes of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, and others and the entire region would swing towards the right. The driving of the wedge simply refers to the division of popular opinion between the west, and all its culture, and Islam. The long term goal of every fundamentalist muslim is to unite the entire Islamic world into a large, unified conservative state. The power of this would be quite immense, and would dispel any of the Wests exports.
This serves their own purpose; in fact the meddling of the west is probably exactly what they want.

I mean...come on man. You are smarter than this. Do you really think Osama and Al Qaeda flew those planes into our buildings to "get us out of the middle east"? Do you really?

Osama bin laden actually has quite legimate goal (not that I defend him, he's methods are quite useless, reckless...) to drive the US out from the middle east.

Again, this is a very short sighted outlook on this organizations intentions. Research what Al Qaeda (ie. OBL) has said, research the writings from the fundamentalists, and you will find this is just one of very many short term goals used to reach the one long term goal.

I haven't made any such claims, now have I?

Oh, but you have. But glad for the correction.

US, and rest of the west, has screwed the middle east up, you cannot blame muslims for the misery imposed on them by the west.

I meant that the west has screwed up the middle east so many times

The West has screwed up Latin America, and Africa, and Asia, and everybody else, and they don't blow up discos and buildings and trains. Meddling is not the problem.

~Chris

 

[Winner]

There is a huge difference between Christian fundamentalism in Western countries and Islamic fundamentalism in Islamic countries. Besides the difference in sheer extent of the phenomenon, there is another difference: Christian fundamentalist groups are rarely a relevant political force (with notable exception of the US). Islamic fundamentalism, on the other hand, is more a standard than an exception. Politicians in Islamic countries simply have to be Muslims and if they're fundamentalists, it's even better for their political career. Muslims in these countries simply don't want to make a difference between politics and religion - this is one of the most important characteristics of Islamic society. It is, by default, theocratic. Concepts like liberalism or democracy, so deeply rooted in the Western culture, are alien to Islamic way of life.

What we see as Islamic fundamentalism is thus a standard state of Islamic society. It is therefore better to call it Islamism - a political movement that aims to modernize Islamic society by turning back to orthodox Islam. Of course, it keeps failing because the way of life based on Islam is simply outdated, pretty much like the way of live based on orthodox Christianity is outdated. The fact that Islam is unreformed religion only makes it worse.

Islamic world has to overcome this illusion (simply put, Islam is their universal answer to everything. We have a problem? Let's be better Muslims and it will be solved. Oh what, it is becoming worse and worse? Then we must blame somebody. Who we despise at most? The West! It is all their fault that our inability to modernize makes us poor! ) and reform their religion. If they don't do that, they'll be stuck in their current state forever.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Any of you ever heard of Turkey? No? Allow me to wikiquote:

Turkey (Turkish: Türkiye), officially the Republic of Turkey (Türkiye Cumhuriyeti (help·info)), is a Eurasian country that stretches across the Anatolian peninsula in Southwestern Asia and the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe. Turkey borders eight countries: Bulgaria to the northwest; Greece to the west; Georgia to the northeast; Armenia, Iran and the Nakhichevan exclave of Azerbaijan to the east; and Iraq and Syria to the southeast. In addition, it borders the Black Sea to the north; the Aegean Sea and the Sea of Marmara to the west; and the Mediterranean Sea to the south.

According to the Turkish Constitution, The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular, constitutional republic whose political system was established in 1923. Turkey is a member state of the United Nations, NATO, OSCE, OECD, OIC, the Council of Europe and a candidate to join the European Union. Due to its strategic location straddling Europe and Asia, and sandwiched between three seas, Turkey has been a historical crossroad between eastern and western cultures for millennia. It has been home to many great civilizations and the battleground of many conflicts between them.

and

Nominally, 99% of the population is Muslim. Most belong to the Sunni branch of Islam. About 15-20% of the population are Alevi Muslims. There is also a small but significant Twelver Shi'a minority, mainly of Azeri descent.

The remaining 1% of the population are of other religions, mostly Christian (Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic (Gregorian), Syriac Orthodox, Molokans, Roman Catholics and Protestants), Jewish, Bahá'ís and Yezidis.

So it can be done.

Since Turkey is clearly a Muslim country, maybe there are other factors to consider which turns a muslim country into a Fanatical Theocracy? Political ones maybe?

 

[Yoda Power]

Am I the only one that notices how this thread started out as: Why does Islamic fundamentalism exist? To: Why do Islamic fundamentalists hate the west? Everyone really has an answer to the second question, but the first one is much more difficult.

Yoda, nice theory, but it lacks logic.

Please tell me how. I don't see it.