Why the apple was not knowledge, but words.

[Kyriakos]

Of the things which may be just theoretically examined as being 'true' or not, likely the one that i personally regard as more or less not possible, is to have a subset at the same time being larger than a carrying set of it. The prospect just echoes chaos. At least some fundamental sense of progression either has to exist (eg set/subset/subsubset etc), or alternatively there could just be One thing there and no sets or subsets.
But i am not seeing how there can be many things around, and some subsets including their sets. This actually seems ominous. (i don't mean setting special axioms so that you can have a symmetry system that supposedly allows for a subset to contain its set. I mean it (to put it more intensely, although not having to be that precise: ) if the microcosm collapses in smaller parts of it to the 'same' set which the macrocosm is.

(a story by Borges contains vaguely a similar idea, of a spiral or helix string of universes that repeat and connect back to each other at the start/end-- 'The route to Al-Motashim').

 

[jackelgull]

I'm not sure I understood the premise of this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the OP saying that man's fall from grace was initiated by his words, which reduces man to merely controlling rather than feeling?

 

[classical_hero]

What is this "apple"? Is the "apple" a lie?

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm not sure I understood the premise of this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the OP saying that man's fall from grace was initiated by his words, which reduces man to merely controlling rather than feeling?

That's plausible. Particularly with the possibility that words are what tend to actually facilitate human understanding of what other people are thinking. That hideously long NPR story I linked last page is one of the trippiest I ever listened to and it seems to support the OP in several places. The tree of knowledge could arguably and neatly stand for the rise of language allowing for the possibility on meaningful understanding and knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Hygro]

Terx, this is almost exactly the topic of my first ever class at uni, "Language and Power" taught by an old lady in the German department. I remember my first day of class I was like "omg, I'm home."

Two of the books I can remember from that class are Judith Butler's Language and Power and Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish. I invite you to go down the rabbit hole of the twin concepts of "speech act" and "performative".

 

[Smote]

Let's face it, people, we don't understand consciousness at all: What is it? Where did it come from? And where did it go?

Well, we know its based on the brain. For instance, when the brain is damaged, our consciousness can get damaged by losing the ability to speak, or motor control, or some other things.

Similarly, there's the split brain phenomenon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain

Sam Harris suggests that maybe consciousness can be seen as a bunch of individual nerve clusters that all vie for attention, and somehow, some of them become consciousness as thoughts. [I think - don't have the source in front of me, but he has said something along these lines.] So perhaps, our minds are like a crowd and the loudest voices become conscious thoughts.


In regards to Terx, I agree with you. Our structures of thought control us to a degree that I think most of us would find alarming, if we considered it fully. I find it alarming. I am forced to think about certain things in certain ways because that is all I know how to think about them, and I can struggle to break these patterns of thought. But it is indeed a struggle, and in the end I just put down a different pattern of thought that is hopefully more helpful. But ultimately, its just another pattern of thought.

Some of our thought patterns are indoctrinated into us by society. Others are created by ourselves, especially if its about a topic that is taboo to discuss in society (these taboos are so destructive.) Since they are not easily or frequently discussed, we usually only have ourselves to discuss some of them with, and we can end up creating terrible thought patterns that are bad for us. Many people go to therapists to try to fix problematic thought patterns.

Lack of thought (Meditation) is one of the only ways to have a break in this.

I will sometime try to describe the experience of letting thoughts go. I trust people not to deride my experiences if I haven't recently tried to undercut one of their beliefs (love you too, ego).

And I love the way you make your posts entertaining. Though it is reminiscent of the websites of conspiracy theorists

 

[bhavv]

Didn't read any of the quackery, but lovely doggie.

 

[Berzerker]

Words are knowledge. Because it's not until we can name something that we can tell ourselves we have knowledge of it.

So the apple was from the tree of knowledge, because knowledge is verbal.

Well, that's my thesis anyway. Shoot it down if you wish, I'm not over invested in it. But at least it's brief and to the point.

Adam spoke with god and Eve and named the animals before the tree of knowledge.

They were naked and unashamed before the tree...

after the tree their eyes were opened and they were naked and ashamed

they sewed loin cloths to cover their nakedness

Eve was about to become pregnant so god told her about the pain of child birth

which is ironic considering god told the 6th day people to fill the world - Adam was not filling the world, he was taken away to the Garden to work

the tree had to do with procreation, thats why a serpent was involved

 

[Borachio]

^ Yeah.

You know, it doesn't matter how I look at that story, it doesn't make sense to me.

"In the begin-end was the worm...."

 

[Berzerker]

I used to think mythology was BS and stories like that are why, but there's a symbolism in the story in addition to a "history" lesson. Trace this story back to Sumer (Joshua 24:2) and we'll find our Garden god and serpent as brothers sharing power and not in total agreement, one god wants us to die in the flood, the other saves "Noah".

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

God did tell Eve about the pain of childbirth. Like this: you been a bad girl, so I'll make childbirth incredibly painful for all women from now on.

Because God loves us so much

 

[Farm Boy]

Indeed Zigster! Never forget you are loved.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I am loved.
What is love?
Baby don't hurt me.

Sorry, went all philosophical all of a sudden.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's a good question. I suspect we could work on it till the end of days.

 

[Kyriakos]

It's a good question. I suspect we could work on it till the end of days.

You sound teleologic.

 

[gay_Aleks]

The end of all days, or just the end of your days?

 

[Farm Boy]

The end of all days, or just the end of your days?

Yes?

You sound teleologic.

I had to look that up. I think I like that reply.

 

[Borachio]

What's love got to do with it? Do with it?

What's love but a second-hand emo--tion?

 

[Kyriakos]

Thanks FarmBoy

Kyriakos slaps Borachio around a bit with a large*

Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden not because they ate from the tree of knowledge, but due to therefore realising what they did

*popular old mIRC phrase

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I am pleasantly surprised by the responses so far and am sorry for the showcasing of some arrogance on my part. But I also have to admit that I had the sneaky hope that said arrogance may instigate more interesting thoughts and less empty snarks.

Be'll responding*


*is that just wrong as English or kinda catchy?