Woman dies in Ireland after being denied an abortion (Coming to a state near you!)

[civ_king]

That's true in very, very many places. Abortion may be an important component of maternal health, but (I agree) there're many (many!) other ways of gaining this MDG in our present world.

Chile has the second lowest maternal mortality rate in the New World (just behind Canada) and abortion is illegal showing that it is very possible to lower maternal mortality rates without abortion

 

[Traitorfish]

Maybe if they had abortions they'd be first. Nothing in a raw league-table to suggest which factors are and aren't relevant.

 

[El_Machinae]

Chile has the second lowest maternal mortality rate in the New World (just behind Canada) and abortion is illegal showing that it is very possible to lower maternal mortality rates without abortion

I'm not disagreeing. If I were to focus on this MDG, there're many policies that I would target first.

I support pro-choice policies, but I don't think it's on the shortest path to improving maternal health. I want abortion to be available locally, but I'd rather worry about other perinatal issues when planning my charity dollars.

 

[civ_king]

Maybe if they had abortions they'd be first. Nothing in a raw league-table to suggest which factors are and aren't relevant.

Maybe, although them being second in the Americas does show it is possible to have a fairly low maternal mortality rate without abortion

 

[emzie]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/bangalore/city-doctor-defends-irish-counterparts/article4100988.ece

It seems there was no hope for this woman when she came in when it was too late.

This would have been relevant had that been the reasoning she was denied a medical procedure. It wasn't.

And of course, from your own article

Two other doctors, however, said the doctors at University Hospital Galway in western Ireland had blundered in denying the 31-year-old’s plea to terminate her pregnancy two days before she developed complications resulting out of septicaemia.

Don't you dare cherry-pick quotes to make it the dead woman's fault she didn't seek treatment sooner, simply because it meshes well with your agenda to bear false witness.

Maybe, although them being second in the Americas does show it is possible to have a fairly low maternal mortality rate without abortion

Then you can have an even lower one allowing for abortion?

 

[Borachio]

The New York Times on Tuesday examined how botched abortion procedures contribute to maternal mortality in Tanzania, in the second of a three-part series on pregnancy- and childbirth-related deaths in the country. The Times reports that the lack of abortion rights in Tanzania -- where the procedure is illegal except in cases where the woman's life or health is at risk -- has prompted pregnant women and girls to seek the procedure from people who have not been trained to perform such procedures. In some cases, these untrained providers give the pregnant women herbs before performing abortions by punching the pregnant women's stomachs or inserting objects into the vagina and uterus. Local hospitals in Tanzania often have to correct mistakes made by the untrained abortion providers. For example, during the month of January, 17 of the 31 minor surgical procedures performed at one Tanzanian hospital were to correct the results of "incomplete abortions."

source

 

[emzie]

I am absolutely flabbergasted that the anti-choice crowd can't admit that in all the whole wide world, their absolutist stance could go wrong even once.

 

[Grisu]

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0036613
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120510141909.htm
Chile has one of the lowest maternal mortality rates in the world and abortion is not legal at all.

you should read your sources more closely, it sais the second lowest in america, not the world....most western european nations have lower rates...

Edit: or even better, I should read posts more closely before replying. Sorry about that

 

[civ_king]

This would have been relevant had that been the reasoning she was denied a medical procedure. It wasn't.

And of course, from your own article



Don't you dare cherry-pick quotes to make it the dead woman's fault she didn't seek treatment sooner, simply because it meshes well with your agenda to bear false witness.



Then you can have an even lower one allowing for abortion?

Here's the problem, if you believe life begins at conception then the number of deaths would be higher if you allowed abortion.

If abortion become impermissible at the point of viability than the average First Nation babies is worth less than the average white baby (if in US substitute black for First Nation).
If based on the point at which they can survive without constant intervention by someone else than you should allow euthanasia of comatose people and babies/infant.
If based on intelligence than you should either ban killing of adult pigs or allow euthanasia up to at least two year old humans.

As far as I know it is unethical to decrease deaths in group A by killing more in group B so that more deaths happen than lives are saved thereby running a life deficit.

source

How about improving education and maternal health which will lower maternal mortality more than legalising abortion possibly could.

I am absolutely flabbergasted that the anti-choice crowd can't admit that in all the whole wide world, their absolutist stance could go wrong even once.

Sure it can, but even water can kill you.

you should read your sources more closely, it sais the second lowest in america, not the world....most western european nations have lower rates...

Edit: or even better, I should read posts more closely before replying. Sorry about that

Forgiven

 

[El_Machinae]

IF you believe that life begins at conception, then Natural Family Planning is willfully evil. So, a lot of it is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If based on intelligence than you should either ban killing of adult pigs or allow euthanasia up to at least two year old humans.

Indeed (well, worse actually, sentience). In a purely technical point of view you'd be right. But in our society we've always distinguished between non-human animals and humans. We care more for our own race. So within our culture it's common to treat them different. I often admitted that this is an emotional, irrational input in my choice.

But the decider here really is, has the foetus developed the beginnings of what defines us as human beings. And as human beings, and in the culture I live in human beings are valued far more than animals. And I actually do believe that one could make a very good argument that given the alternatives, it should be illegal to kill animals even for food.

I just happen to be that much of a bastard that I care more about the pleasure of eating a steak, but I'm not that much of a bastard that I support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience. It's an emotional, irrational fault in my reasoning.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm pretty sure the bible forbade the eating of pigs, but maybe not for the right reasons

 

[Borachio]

How about improving education and maternal health which will lower maternal mortality more than legalising abortion possibly could.

Absolutely. Education and primary health care are the way to go, I agree 100% . But what you get if you make abortion illegal is not no abortion, but illegal abortion.

Indeed (well, worse actually, sentience). In a purely technical point of view you'd be right. But in our society we've always distinguished between non-human animals and humans. We care more for our own race. So within our culture it's common to treat them different. I often admitted that this is an emotional, irrational input in my choice.

But the decider here really is, has the foetus developed the beginnings of what defines us as human beings. And as human beings, and in the culture I live in human beings are valued far more than animals. And I actually do believe that one could make a very good argument that given the alternatives, it should be illegal to kill animals even for food.

I just happen to be that much of a bastard that I care more about the pleasure of eating a steak, but I'm not that much of a bastard that I support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience. It's an emotional, irrational fault in my reasoning.

You and me, both, Ziggy.

And what's worse I feel guilt while I eat.

 

[Deaths Advocate]

I think the bible is a poor basis for argument.

 

[bathsheba666]

Or, if you want to start an argument, there is no better place.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Or, if you want to start an argument, there is no better place.

I disagree.

Oh you meant the Bible, not CFC-OT.

 

[Farm Boy]

You and me, both, Ziggy.

And what's worse I feel guilt while I eat.

Spent any time raising pigs? It seems a pretty effective way to get past guilt in eating them.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Spent any time raising pigs? It seems a pretty effective way to get past guilt in eating them.

We had a great tv show, where celebrities had to pick the cow that was going to be slaughtered for that night's dinner. Being the city bloke that I am, I would have been completely bleeding heart useless.

 

[civ_king]

IF you believe that life begins at conception, then Natural Family Planning is willfully evil. So, a lot of it is in the eye of the beholder.

NFP is simply abstaining on certain days.

Indeed (well, worse actually, sentience). In a purely technical point of view you'd be right. But in our society we've always distinguished between non-human animals and humans. We care more for our own race. So within our culture it's common to treat them different. I often admitted that this is an emotional, irrational input in my choice.

But the decider here really is, has the foetus developed the beginnings of what defines us as human beings. And as human beings, and in the culture I live in human beings are valued far more than animals. And I actually do believe that one could make a very good argument that given the alternatives, it should be illegal to kill animals even for food.

I just happen to be that much of a bastard that I care more about the pleasure of eating a steak, but I'm not that much of a bastard that I support killing a human being who has the same or even a lower level of sentience. It's an emotional, irrational fault in my reasoning.

An embryo quite frequently becomes a person too if it is protected from harm so don't they have worth?

I'm pretty sure the bible forbade the eating of pigs, but maybe not for the right reasons

Stop appealing to the Bible.

Absolutely. Education and primary health care are the way to go, I agree 100% . But what you get if you make abortion illegal is not no abortion, but illegal abortion.


You and me, both, Ziggy.

And what's worse I feel guilt while I eat.

Absolutely. Education and primary health care are the way to go, I agree 100% . But what you get if you make infanticide illegal is not no infanticide, but illegal infanticide.

People in poor areas like the one you mentioned engage infanticide, not because they enjoy killing babies, but because they can't afford to take care of them and there aren't enough people to adopt the babies. In situation like that do you improve education or do you do that and legalise infanticide?

We had a great tv show, where celebrities had to pick the cow that was going to be slaughtered for that night's dinner. Being the city bloke that I am, I would have been completely bleeding heart useless.

Really? When I see a herd of cattle my reaction is "Mmm dinner" and I'm a city dweller.

 

[Farm Boy]

Really? When I see a herd of cattle my reaction is "Mmm dinner" and I'm a city dweller.

Just make sure you aren't looking at Holsteins, that'd just be a tease unless you wanted some cheese.