2020 US Election (Part One)

[Lexicus]

My point is that it takes zero knowledge or skill or intelligence of any kind to buy and then mismanage a failing business, and then go to your crooked lawyers and tell them to rob it blind on your behalf. Assuming they didn't just do it of their own accord so they could collect millions in fees for their services.

I mean, I don't think I could do it, and not only because I have scruples Trump lacks. Maybe I could if I could afford lawyers and accountants.

 

[mitsho]

What Trump does need and is apparently capable of is what you call branding: Enough charisma to make sure his lawyers don't rip HIM off. So that's a talent, even if it's just "I can convince enough new people to invest in me after my last endeavour has gone bust". Which is a bit different.

 

[metalhead]

What Trump does need and is apparently capable of is what you call branding: Enough charisma to make sure his lawyers don't rip HIM off. So that's a talent, even if it's just "I can convince enough new people to invest in me after my last endeavour has gone bust". Which is a bit different.

Well, he is entertaining enough to have convinced CBS or whoever to put him on TV in exchange for some money.

As for actual lenders and investors, he had to agree to launder lots of money in order to find people willing to lend to him.

 

[onejayhawk]

It's pretty telling that you're actually trying to call me out for updating a prior belief based on new information. I guess in partisan hack world, this is considered bad form. You are such a pathetic little weasel. Yeah, maybe he is actually a billionaire because he had $400 million given to him. Lord knows he didn't make it on his own. Either way he is clearly not adept at doing anything other than defrauding people. Because he didn't exploit squat, he had lawyers and accountants do all that. Do you think there is any chance at all that Donald Trump understood bankruptcy law well enough on his own to exploit it? Of course not.

By all accounts he actually tried running the businesses. The only thing he was any good at was stiffing contractors and employees. At actual business, he was an enormous failure. Chances are excellent that his pop and some of his and his pop's crooked pals set these schemes up for him. It was all just another way for his handlers to give him more money. None of it was actually him. The people that set up the tax fraud for him are probably the same ones who arranged the bankruptcies for him.

It isn't new information. This was all well-covered ground before the primaries started in 2016. My point is that it's entirely personal opinion and not opinion based on facts.

J

 

[metalhead]

It isn't new information. This was all well-covered ground before the primaries started in 2016. My point is that it's entirely personal opinion and not opinion based on facts.

J

The fact of Trump inheriting $400 million partly through tax fraud didn't come out until October 2018. You're not in command of the facts and so are in no position to explain them to anyone.

 

[Takhisis]

I mean, I don't think I could do it, and not only because I have scruples Trump lacks. Maybe I could if I could afford lawyers and accountants.

Being able to afford lawyers and accountants is not ‘intelligence’, even if Donald J. Trump likes to portray himself as ‘smart’ for not paying taxes.

He's just the end result of an entire system designed to make the rich richer and the poor work, to the point that if you're rich you can donate to the Trump Foundation and get a tax discount/rebate/refund/whatever they call it these days for doing charity work, even if you yourself are the titular Trump.

 

[innonimatu]

People keep underestimating Trump at their peril. He's is still filthy rich. And he made it to president after decades of people mocking him for talking about it. That alone should keep people from saying dumb stuff like "he's dump". He's not. He's ignorant of a lot of stuff, he has opinions most here do not like, but he's not stupid. And he must be a keep judge of people considering all the vipers he consorts with and how none managed to bring him down.

I said it back before his first election and by this time I'll say it again: the only candidate I see running against him with any chance to beat him is Sanders. There are a few other good people (insofar as they can bee good in this role of candidate) but they won't beat him.

 

[onejayhawk]

The fact of Trump inheriting $400 million partly through tax fraud didn't come out until October 2018. You're not in command of the facts and so are in no position to explain them to anyone.

Clearly, one of is not. Maybe it was not just another anti-Trump conspiracy theory like collusion and obstruction turned out to be. Good luck with it.

Being able to afford lawyers and accountants is not ‘intelligence’, even if Donald J. Trump likes to portray himself as ‘smart’ for not paying taxes.

He's just the end result of an entire system designed to make the rich richer and the poor work, to the point that if you're rich you can donate to the Trump Foundation and get a tax discount/rebate/refund/whatever they call it these days for doing charity work, even if you yourself are the titular Trump.

No, it isn't. Intelligence is required to do it, not to pay for it.

The bottom line is going to be performance. Those that think Trump defrauded millions will not be dissuaded if he were to walk on water. Most attitudes are not that hardened and Trump has done a very good job.

J

 

[Ironsided]

People keep underestimating Trump at their peril. He's is still filthy rich. And he made it to president after decades of people mocking him for talking about it. That alone should keep people from saying dumb stuff like "he's dump". He's not. He's ignorant of a lot of stuff, he has opinions most here do not like, but he's not stupid. And he must be a keep judge of people considering all the vipers he consorts with and how none managed to bring him down.

I said it back before your fist election and by this time I'll say it again: the only candidate I see running against him with any chance to beat him is Sanders. There are a few other good people (insofar as they can bee good in this role of candidate) but they won't beat him.

Much agreed. Trump is very much in tune with a lot of Americans, even the many who don’t like him. It seems maybe 20% of his voter base is delusional on a level that they actually believe the hype and hyperbole of his rhetoric, the wall and the MAGA caps. They are the few who still cling on to the old ideas of capitalism and see businessmen as heroes. The majority of Americans are quite enlightened to the fact they are screwed by a system that says it’s inclusive, democratic and fair, but is really not. The vast majority of Trump voters seem to be ordinary people who are sick and tired of being told they have had every chance and every opportunity to make it, but fail because they are not good enough. Do they think Trump will make their life much better? I don’t think so. I think some vote with their conscience and beliefs that if you take down or dismantle a state that will always only works for the few, the many will be better off in the long run. They were never really invited to the prawn sandwich lane to begin with. I also think some of Trump voters are happy to see the “traitorous” Democratic Party squirm in their ineptitude to provide for the people. Never underestimate good old schadenfreude. I think some want to put political pressure on the elites and weather you like it or not they have certainly succeeded in this by electing Trump.

In many ways America is in a situation of fatigue. An overworked and underappreciated workforce flailing all directions to find something solid. Never has there been better soil or conditions in the US for a SocDem grassroots movement.

 

[Lexicus]

And he made it to president after decades of people mocking him for talking about it.

More like four years than decades. The gist of what I've been saying the last few posts is don't underestimate the guy though.

I think some want to put political pressure on the elites and weather you like it or not they have certainly succeeded in this by electing Trump.

No, see....no. This is just stupid, frankly. The elites are howling with joy at everything the Trump Administration does.

The vast majority of Trump voters seem to be ordinary people who are sick and tired of being told they have had every chance and every opportunity to make it, but fail because they are not good enough.

The bulk of Trump voters are perfectly successful people (relatively affluent suburbanites) who tell other people they have failed because they aren't good enough on a regular basis.

 

[metalhead]

The bulk of Trump voters are perfectly successful people (relatively affluent suburbanites) who tell other people they have failed because they aren't good enough on a regular basis.

Like.

Trump voters are disproportionately white people without college degrees, but nobody should be equating that with either a lack of financial security or lack of success. The reality is quite the opposite. People with lower than median income went for Clinton by a pretty wide margin. People above went more narrowly for Trump.

So yeah, the conclusion that Trump won because working stiffs wanted to stick it in the eye of the elites is simply wrong. There are lots of complicated reasons why the people who voted for Trump decided to, but the income data is quite clear that the elites had no problem voting for him.

 

[Tristan_C]

The majority of Americans are quite enlightened to the fact they are screwed by a system that says it’s inclusive, democratic and fair, but is really not. The vast majority of Trump voters seem to be ordinary people who are sick and tired of being told they have had every chance and every opportunity to make it, but fail because they are not good enough. Do they think Trump will make their life much better? I don’t think so. I think some vote with their conscience and beliefs that if you take down or dismantle a state that will always only works for the few, the many will be better off in the long run. They were never really invited to the prawn sandwich lane to begin with. I also think some of Trump voters are happy to see the “traitorous” Democratic Party squirm in their ineptitude to provide for the people.

While I have heard Trump voters described in this way by Vox and Huffpo, and on this forum for sure, I have no recollection of a Trump voter expressing or even indirectly evincing these attitudes. They are persistently opaque and unrelatable to their counterparts on the left. Maybe discard the victimhood stuff completely ("a system that says it’s inclusive, democratic and fair, but is really not") and the corresponding goal, that of looking to a politician to "make their life much better." Replace it with Nietzschean master morality. The cynicism is misplaced ("enlightened to the fact they are screwed"), since Trump voters are scarcely directing cynicism at the US "system" compared to what they let fly at their adversaries within the US, primarily the left wing media and its victims, such as your socialist groundswell.

 

[metalhead]

I think we all figured out a while ago that owning the libs is the only thing politically motivating conservatives these days.

 

[onejayhawk]

I think we all figured out a while ago that owning the libs is the only thing politically motivating conservatives these days.

I think we all figured out that sticking it to the other side is universal.

Do you seriously not understand what conservatives want or is this just flippancy?

J

 

[Ironsided]

blah

I’m just calling it as I see it from an outsider’s perspective. I have followed the international coverage following the election and this is what shines through in interviews with the actual electorate at the time and since. It’s in the nature of Americans to keep a façade of self-sufficiency but you can tell there is much frustrations of inadequacies and injustices underneath that surface. It's a bit parodic really.

No, see....no. This is just stupid, frankly. The elites are howling with joy at everything the Trump Administration does.

There is plenty of elites who got a well-deserved bruising with the election of Trump. Hillary and the DNC for example. Political and economic analysts. Plenty of corporate leaders. Liberal media is a huge one. Think tanks and intellectuals. Many of whom continuously lobby and drive the politics of the dems to the right under the guise of liberalism and personal freedoms. Look at Obama just the other day calling for unity. With what? With party line? You keep that corrupt ideology-deprived DNC party line and you will most likely lose again to Trump.

 

[metalhead]

Do you seriously not understand what conservatives want or is this just flippancy?

Judging by the most recent CPAC, what conservatives seem to want more than anything is to preserve a white majority in the United States.

 

[Lexicus]

There is plenty of elites who got a well-deserved bruising with the election of Trump. Hillary and the DNC for example.

Hillary and the DNC are not elites. They are like supplicants laying at the feet of the real elites, or perhaps parasites latched on to the skin, depending.

Plenty of corporate leaders. Liberal media is a huge one.

Again, no. Trump has proved to be a large ratings, and therefore revenue, boon to the "liberal media."

Many of whom continuously lobby and drive the politics of the dems to the right under the guise of liberalism and personal freedoms. Look at Obama just the other day calling for unity. With what? With party line? You keep that corrupt ideology-deprived DNC party line and you will most likely lose again to Trump.

Again. No. If you think that the likes of Obama are "elites" in US society your view is skewed. The actual elites in this country- the organized capitalist class, in a phrase - love Trump and what his administration is doing for them.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that the ravages of neoliberalism gave Trump a boost among poor white people. But to describe his election victory and his Presidency as anything but a consolidation of power by the American elite is like onejayhawk levels of delusion.

 

[Ironsided]

"It's all about the money" is a self-fulfilling prophecy in America. You have very few leaders to help you out of that mess. Bernie is at least trying.

 

[Lexicus]

"It's all about the money" is a self-fulfilling prophecy in America. You have very few leaders to help you out of that mess. Bernie is at least trying.

It's all about material realities. Material reality is that no elites, zero (0), have taken any kind of material "bruising" from Trump's victory. Rhetorical bruising perhaps. Moral and emotional bruising maybe. But even Obama and Hillary aren't a cent poorer or one bit less influential or well-connected than they were before Trump won. True, Hillary didn't get to be President, but she's still the former Secretary of State and the wife of the former President.

You have very few leaders to help you out of that mess. Bernie is at least trying.

It ain't about any leader. The people will organize their way out of this mess, or not. Bernie himself is pretty clear on that: not me, us.

FtR Bernie's my tentative first choice in the Democratic field as it currently stands.

 

[Ironsided]

That's why I originally called it a SocDem grassroots movement. And I already knew you support it. What I don’t agree with is your definition of what constitutes the elites. It’s not just about the money (yet). I'm not going to post-fight you for it though.