2020 US Election (Part Two)

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Odd to see two people here so worked up about imprisonment of illegal immigrants. Borders are impossible to defend without being nasty. That's an inescapable fact of life. You either police them, "cages" and all, or you let anyone determined to get in in.

The idea of abolishing border controls is as foolish as the idea of abolishing police. Unworkable and bound to create blowback. Think through the consequences of the moral causes you want to adopt...
Are you just trying to be ‘lol libruls’ edgy here, or do you genuinely not have a problem with the baby cages and the US government arguing in court detained children are not entitled to soap?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48710432
 
One wants personally to be part of voting Trump out.

And voting Biden in? What's he going to do with Syria and Afghanistan? I wouldn't want to vote for him and spend the next few years watching more bombs fall on people, thats gonna happen with Trump or Biden.

I think you're missing the point. Everyone who repeats the "Both sides are bad" refrain is fully aware of what you just said. So they could easily say "The Democrats are bad. The Republicans are worse." But they don't. Instead they very intentionally and deliberately say "Both sides are bad" precisely to imply (or really to state outright) that the Democrats and Republicans are equally bad.

The reason some people do this, is because they genuinely believe that there is no meaningful or substantive difference between the Democrats and the Republicans and how bad they are. Those people are wrong, but that's their good faith belief. However, the reason most people say this, particularly Republicans and Conservatives themselves, is to cloak themselves in moral equivalence. If "both sides are bad" then there is no immorality in picking one side or the other, its basically arbitrary and/or a simple matter of personal preference.

Republicans think their side is equally bad and there's nothing immoral about voting for Democrats? Maybe 'both sides are bad' means neither is good much less deserves an endorsement.

Words of wisdom regarding apostrophes.. It's easy to confuse "it's" with "its" because apostrophes normally denote possession, but "it's" strictly means "it is" or "it has."

Well live and learn, I've been misusing it's for its. That's gonna be a tough habit to break.

This particular narrative is just clear dick move. He was the president at the time. He was getting the briefings that was informing him how severe it was, not democrats in the house. Furthermore he lied to the entire American public over and over again and immediately leaned into the racism that house dems were trying to get people to avoid in the first place.

Your take on this is so typical of the “libertarians” that I know. Which is to say it is Trump defending to the hilt with only a thin veneer of giving two ****s about your supposed moral stances otherwise.


The rest of your take is garbage too. But you know that, just like you know in your heart of hearts you’d be defending “property rights” back in 1850.

Why are libertarians or anyone else obliged to accept a hypocritical slave owner's definition of property rights? They dont even believe it, if someone enslaved them they'd runaway too. They wouldn't be endorsing the slave owner's property rights.

If someone was destroying your home would you let it happen because a slave owner discredited your 'property rights'? Sure, go ahead and destroy my business because, you know, slaves are property. Hey, if Hitler said he was 'free' to murder millions I guess no one can argue that freedom prohibits murder.

Did Trump make NY send infected old people back into nursing homes? The Guv out in Washington state had to deal with a nursing home hit by the bug and look how well he did, damn good job Inslee. In our system it's difficult for the President to do much because the states are separate entities.

But when Trump did act the Democrats ripped him apart for restricting travel. Biden even acknowledged back in April Trump was right. This notion the Democrats were relying on Trump for advice wouldn't speak well for them if it reflected reality.
 
Odd to see two people here so worked up about imprisonment of illegal immigrants. Borders are impossible to defend without being nasty. That's an inescapable fact of life. You either police them, "cages" and all, or you let anyone determined to get in in.

The idea of abolishing border controls is as foolish as the idea of abolishing police. Unworkable and bound to create blowback. Think through the consequences of the moral causes you want to adopt...

Border control is different than sending them off to Georgia, thousand miles away from the border, to be housed in a for-profit private concentration camp that does not give them proper food or bedding, corrals them together so densely they literally can't move, separates children as young as two and three from their mothers and fathers, does not provide toothpaste or toilet paper, and allows them to die in their custody through intentional neglect. Minus the gas chambers and slave labor, it's very much the same system as employed in "nasty" places whereupon discovery we sentenced the people in charge to death. Calling it a "prison" is generous.

Additional info: some of these 'detainees' are asylum seekers who have an absolute legal right to be here, at least until their case is heard.
 
Odd to see two people here so worked up about imprisonment of illegal immigrants. Borders are impossible to defend without being nasty. That's an inescapable fact of life. You either police them, "cages" and all, or you let anyone determined to get in in.

The idea of abolishing border controls is as foolish as the idea of abolishing police. Unworkable and bound to create blowback. Think through the consequences of the moral causes you want to adopt...
‘cruel and unusual punishment’

and to think that you have the gall to, when i point out abuses by the soviet union, accuse me of being a nazi…
Minus the gas chambers and slave labor, it's very much the same system as employed in "nasty" places whereupon discovery we sentenced the people in charge to death.
 
From my perspective they have crossed the Moral Event Horizon.

An attitude, on the current criteria and scope of things, that destroys families, communities, societies, and nations and erodes civilization and social bonds themselves. And for what? Short-term political gains by unscrupulous, corrupt, and criminal politicians - from BOTH SIIDES. Is it truly worth it to tear apart your very society, nation, and family to allow a bunch of lying crooks to get a few one-ups in the very short term in the halls of power. Is that a good exchange rate for YOU?

I went to a Catholic college, and a number of my friends were/are fairly conservative in either economic or cultural senses. On many issues we agreed to not touch them with a ten-foot pole to maintain the friendship, but I did end friendship with two of them: one because he blatantly, intentionally, and repeatedly called Obama the n-word (heck, the entire 5 person group I was with at the time straight up cancelled him after that!); and the other because he said he had no problems with the horrific baby cages and family separations because 'they shouldn't break the law'.
Certain political or social beliefs are abhorrent enough any rational person should cut any friendship or social ties with them.

Odd to see two people here so worked up about imprisonment of illegal immigrants. Borders are impossible to defend without being nasty. That's an inescapable fact of life. You either police them, "cages" and all, or you let anyone determined to get in in.

The idea of abolishing border controls is as foolish as the idea of abolishing police. Unworkable and bound to create blowback. Think through the consequences of the moral causes you want to adopt...

I'm not opposed to arresting illegals. Like it or not visa systems exist.

Hell NZ will deport you if you are illegal (overstayers here).

We don't throw them into prison type cages. Hell we don't treat our actual criminals like that.

Border control is different than sending them off to Georgia, thousand miles away from the border, to be housed in a for-profit private concentration camp that does not give them proper food or bedding, corrals them together so densely they literally can't move, separates children as young as two and three from their mothers and fathers, does not provide toothpaste or toilet paper, and allows them to die in their custody through intentional neglect. Minus the gas chambers and slave labor, it's very much the same system as employed in "nasty" places whereupon discovery we sentenced the people in charge to death. Calling it a "prison" is generous.

Additional info: some of these 'detainees' are asylum seekers who have an absolute legal right to be here, at least until their case is heard.

‘cruel and unusual punishment’

and to think that you have the gall to, when i point out abuses by the soviet union, accuse me of being a nazi…

You're all forgetting (or possibly in denial of, or were never told) that these inhuman conditions attempted uncleared border crossers are suffering in did not start with the Trump Administration - though he certainly carries it on with relish - but started in the Obama Administration - the very same Obama Administration that Joe Biden was Vice President in. But you ridicule me when I say BOTH major parties are horrid and inhuman...
 
Perhaps it is less important exactly what one says than it is how one goes about saying it...

Just something to ponder.
 
That's a good question. Why do you support the 40% that is trying to destroy the country from the inside?

I don't support Republicans.

The answer is someone with two children. Suburban moms are a big bloc of votes and they are very security oriented. The rioting is not selling.


People who reject Franklin's warning about trading liberty for security.
 
I have had enough of your binary, dehumanizing, absolutism. You have already used it about a month ago to deliver the loathsome and vile slander, lie, and insult of actually calling me a Fascist and than standing by it twice. Until you show even the smallest amount of sense of proportion and perspective, and the understanding that individual human being are being spoken of cavalierly and unthinkingly, in lump reference, like they're bee hives or AI CIv players, your opinions on ANY of the social sciences have no meaningful validity, and I will treat them as such, and call out every Goebbels-school demographic-based dehumanizing bloc statement you make. And, yes, I used the term "Goebbels-school," as in Joseph Goebbels, because that is EXACTLY the absolutist, dehumanizing, hard demographic thinking you espouse, along with McCarthyist witch-hunting theory. I hope you're proud of these influences on your beliefs and rhetoric.


Opposing fascism is bad. Got it. Tolerating evil is good. Got it.
 
An attitude, on the current criteria and scope of things, that destroys families, communities, societies, and nations and erodes civilization and social bonds themselves. And for what? Short-term political gains by unscrupulous, corrupt, and criminal politicians - from BOTH SIIDES. Is it truly worth it to tear apart your very society, nation, and family to allow a bunch of lying crooks to get a few one-ups in the very short term in the halls of power. Is that a good exchange rate for YOU?

What does my estrangement from these people have to do with "short-term political gains by unscrupulous, corrupt, and criminal politicians?" This isn't about partisan advantage, it's about my personal moral boundaries.
The way I feel about those camps, if every single American (including myself) were to drop dead and all our buildings and achievements to collapse into dust, "so it must be said: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

Odd to see two people here so worked up about imprisonment of illegal immigrants. Borders are impossible to defend without being nasty. That's an inescapable fact of life. You either police them, "cages" and all, or you let anyone determined to get in in.

The idea of abolishing border controls is as foolish as the idea of abolishing police. Unworkable and bound to create blowback. Think through the consequences of the moral causes you want to adopt...

From whom does the border need "defense"? That border was porous for decades even after the US empire conquered half of Mexico. It was only the onset of racist panic about an invasion of non-whites that modern border enforcement evolved there. And now most of the people imprisoned are guilty of nothing more than having been born on the wrong side of the line, and of fleeing the consequences of US policies in Latin America.

There is a camp in Georgia where detainees are reportedly subject to hysterectomies without their consent - that is forced sterilization. Several thousand children have reported sexual abuse. There are reports of chemicals being sprayed every half hour which are causing detainees to cough blood. It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that these are Nazi-ish policies.

And the immigration detention system existed under previous administrations, it is true, but it is the Trump administration that decided on its own initiative to treat crossing the border itself as an imprisonable offense, and to detain men, women, and children indefinitely under purposely horrible conditions.

So the people who support this or are willing to tolerate it because they support Trump for other reasons, have in my view put themselves beyond the pale of humanity.




 
How many Americans died in major wars? Biden's more pro war than Trump.
American coronavirus deaths now greatly exceed all American 9-11 and subsequent/related war deaths combined, so... that point no longer sticks.

As an aside... that figure holds true, not just with the wars that you are trying to blame on Biden, but even if you also include the Vietnam and Korean wars... the American coronavirus deaths still exceeds them all combined. So at this point trying to argue against Biden vis a vis Trump based on "war-deaths" is just complete and utter hogwash.
 
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Are they holding their nose to avoid the stench of the tens hundreds of thousands of American corpses Trump has piled up?
FTFY. Especially considering that experts agree that coronavirus deaths are being underreported. Sanjay Gupta on CNN cited a study (Harvard IIRC) that projected that 80% of the American coronavirus deaths could have been prevented had there been a competent government response.
Republicans think their side is equally bad and there's nothing immoral about voting for Democrats? Maybe 'both sides are bad' means neither is good much less deserves an endorsement.
Given what I posted, I don't see your point. Are you just agreeing with what I said?
 
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This quote from a CNN article about Senate Republicans and their response to Trump's...ummmm...unique presidential style could be subtitled "where a political party goes to die."

"Many in difficult reelection races avoid answering questions from reporters, taking back staircases and entrances to avoid areas where the press congregates."

When you are campaigning the press is your life. Air time to get your face and your voice to the public costs a mountain of money. A reporter willing to give you airtime for free is the greatest boon that circumstances can send your way. Trump having them buried in a deluge of questions they cannot face to the point that they are scurrying like cockroaches at sight of a camera is the most remarkable feature of this election cycle. I genuinely never imagined the like.
 
Given what I posted, I don't see your point. Are you just agreeing with what I said?

My point is Republicans (and Democrats) dont think their side is equally bad and there is no immorality in voting for the other side.

American coronavirus deaths now greatly exceed all American 9-11 and subsequent/related war deaths combined, so... that point no longer sticks.

As an aside... that figure holds true, not just with the wars that you are trying to blame on Biden, but even if you also include the Vietnam and Korean wars... the American coronavirus deaths still exceeds them all combined. So at this point trying to argue against Biden vis a vis Trump based on "war-deaths" is just complete and utter hogwash.

So major wars are now limited to 9/11 and its aftermath? Oh, you're willing to include Vietnam and Korea? How about WWII and the civil war? If we kill a million Iraqis, Syrians and Libyans do they count? Obviously they're not American deaths, but if we're comparing death tolls Joe wins hands down and we dont even have to credit him with all the Americans who died from disease while he was in office.
 
Opposing fascism is bad. Got it. Tolerating evil is good. Got it.

You know, when I was a teenager, still in high school and living with my mother, their was a retired Austrian-born woman living next door. I used to mow the lawn and shovel sidewalks for her for some extra pocket money. She used to tell me stories of her childhood and early adolescence in Vienna in the late '30's, early to mid 40's. Absolutely chilling tales. Such as the one in 1938 where she and all her schoolmates got the day off school, and her parents got the day off work. But the catch was, they had to attend a mandatory and rally for their new sole-legal political party after the "peaceful annexation backed by overwhelming support of a referendum," by Germany. And speaking (or rather ranting) at the podium before was none other than You-Know-Who, He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named, the Dark Lord himself (and I don't mean Voldemort!). Most of her other stories were even more disturbing and horrifying. And she wasn't even a member of a target pogrom demographic. My point is, you obviously have no idea at all what Fascism is, and you use the word so irresponsibly, inappropriately, and DISGUSTINGLY, throwing it around like used dog's chew toy for all the consideration of the ramifications and meanings of the term. You have been so pampered and have it so good that you can't even possibly comprehend what Fascism really is and really means. And the Trump Administration is NOT IT! You are no better than those vile incendiary right-wing pundits who also use terms of that magnitude irresponsibly and flippantly for exaggerated rhetorical emphasis. And as for evil, I have just finished saying above, it's a theological, not political term, and thus your use of it is also highly inappropriate. And using the terms, "opposing," and "tolerating," for whole blocs of voters, and not just governments, implies thinking that stripping of rights or mass consequences - or "collective punishment," a Stalinist ideal just for the way people vote (violating the right of the right of the ballot and freedom of conscience), which strikes me as VERY disturbing and dystopian, monstrous, and something Trump hasn't even come close to suggesting. You are out of line, and it is time to re-examine your disgusting and warped rhetoric and view on things.

"One must take care, my boy, lest one, whilst fighting monsters, become an even worse monster,"
-Abraham van Helsing, "Dracula," (the original Bram Stoker novel - the line did NOT appear in the Francis Ford Coppola movie)

What does my estrangement from these people have to do with "short-term political gains by unscrupulous, corrupt, and criminal politicians?" This isn't about partisan advantage, it's about my personal moral boundaries.
The way I feel about those camps, if every single American (including myself) were to drop dead and all our buildings and achievements to collapse into dust, "so it must be said: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."



From whom does the border need "defense"? That border was porous for decades even after the US empire conquered half of Mexico. It was only the onset of racist panic about an invasion of non-whites that modern border enforcement evolved there. And now most of the people imprisoned are guilty of nothing more than having been born on the wrong side of the line, and of fleeing the consequences of US policies in Latin America.

There is a camp in Georgia where detainees are reportedly subject to hysterectomies without their consent - that is forced sterilization. Several thousand children have reported sexual abuse. There are reports of chemicals being sprayed every half hour which are causing detainees to cough blood. It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that these are Nazi-ish policies.

And the immigration detention system existed under previous administrations, it is true, but it is the Trump administration that decided on its own initiative to treat crossing the border itself as an imprisonable offense, and to detain men, women, and children indefinitely under purposely horrible conditions.

So the people who support this or are willing to tolerate it because they support Trump for other reasons, have in my view put themselves beyond the pale of humanity.

I'm referring to you succumbing to your family being destroyed permanently because of the short term machinations, corruption, and crimes of politicians of both major parties (for which they should all be in prison, or hanging - big bipartisan prisons and gallows - wouldn't it be beautiful?), which is a disgusting weakness of social, and such flimsy destruction of family because of such matters would be something that would greatly displease, not vindicate, the Lord. The Lord would also have a lot of harsh judgements for every Democratic Administration, too. And I notice you ignored my bringing up that Obama started those camps - Trump just carried them on - albeit with relish and enthusiasm.




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My point is Republicans (and Democrats) dont think their side is equally bad and there is no immorality in voting for the other side.
That does not work/make sense. As has already been pointed out. The simple, easy, obvious and correct way to express that is for Republicans/Conservatives to say, "Republicans are bad. Democrats are worse." They are well aware of this. So there is a reason that they instead choose to say "both sides are bad" and it is because they want to express equal badness, for all the reasons that I and others have laid out.
How about WWII and the civil war?
You're blaming WW2 and the Civil War on Biden??? :dubious: This is the 2020 election thread. Please state the wars that you're blaming on Biden.
 
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So major wars are now limited to 9/11 and its aftermath?
If we kill a million Iraqis, Syrians and Libyans do they count?
Nice try, but nope... you don't get to do this. You can't point out that you said "major" wars but then ignore that I said "American deaths". You can't demand that I adhere to the parameters of your example while simultaneously trying to expand the parameters of mine.
 
An attitude, on the current criteria and scope of things, that destroys families, communities, societies, and nations and erodes civilization and social bonds themselves. And for what? Short-term political gains by unscrupulous, corrupt, and criminal politicians - from BOTH SIIDES.

OK, Patine, but do let me remind you

First of all, the concept of only "two sides," is an artificial and highly inaccurate concept engineered by a manipulative propaganda engine pushing absolutist, Neo-Manichaean, siege mentality, divide-and-conquer politics.
 
OK, Patine, but do let me remind you

I was using the term, "both sides," to refer to the American socio-political, and specifically, partisan context, not in a universal way. I would have thought my contextual codeswitching would be obvious, even to a fool.

Moderator Action: Here at CFC we don't call other posters fools. It's flaming. Cease and desist. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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I'm referring to you succumbing to your family being destroyed permanently because of the short term machinations, corruption, and crimes of politicians of both major parties (for which they should all be in prison, or hanging - big bipartisan prisons and gallows - wouldn't it be beautiful?), which is a disgusting weakness of social, and such flimsy destruction of family because of such matters would be something that would greatly displease, not vindicate, the Lord.

We are talking about the same Lord who drowned all humans except one family in a fit of pique right? Same Lord who turned Job's wife into a pillar of salt for looking back?

And I notice you ignored my bringing up that Obama started those camps - Trump just carried them on - albeit with relish and enthusiasm.

First of all, no, I didn't ignore this point in my post, if you read it again you will see this. Second of all, no, Obama didn't start the US immigration detention system. You are just wrong about that. Third of all, Trump has not simply carried on Obama-era policy. You are also wrong about that.
 
We are talking about the same Lord who drowned all humans except one family in a fit of pique right? Same Lord who turned Job's wife into a pillar of salt for looking back?

That's Old Covenant. The New Covenant is a message of Salvation through Undeserved Grace made available to all humanity by the Love of God, and is a religion Love, Peace, Forgiveness, Charity, and Community. Just because a bunch of greedy, power-hungry, self-righteous big churches run by Wolves in Sheep's Clothing Amongst the Flock give Christianity a very bad name - especially by mixing Old and New Covenant messages with ulterior motives and deception and manipulation in their hearts - does mean the core message - the Ministry of Christ and the Path to Salvation - have changed or are bad. People who complain about, or villainize, Christianity, have just been meeting all the wrong Christians. Jerry Falwell is NOT representative of the Christian doctrine.

"Christianity is a beautiful religion. Too bad more Christians don't practice it."
-Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi
 
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