2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Patine]

Yeah, that God guy definitely a sociopath.

Bill Maher has a bit about how Trump is very, very similar to the old testamant god (moody, needing constant praise & proof of one's loyalty, prone to angry mood swings, etc)

One should not take Bible study from pundits who live to spread ulterior political motives and message.

 

[innonimatu]

From whom does the border need "defense"? That border was porous for decades even after the US empire conquered half of Mexico. It was only the onset of racist panic about an invasion of non-whites that modern border enforcement evolved there. And now most of the people imprisoned are guilty of nothing more than having been born on the wrong side of the line, and of fleeing the consequences of US policies in Latin America.

That the US didn't conquer, or rather didn't annex, the other half of Mexico was just because of that racism. More religious than "racial" as it is talked about today, but we can agree on the point.
But the reason this porous border didn't need much control was the very existence of that racism. For mexicans the idea of moving north wasn't that appealing: they'd still be poor, refused state support, and be out of their social support network which extend even in many poor villages.

Crushing poverty south of the border, and comparatively less racism than before north of it increased the number of people crossing over. At some point this creates adverse reactions, and calls for turning back those attempting to enter get heard. It's part of the normal political process. Row against that tide at your peril. Ending poverty advances more by improving conditions south of the border than by opening it. One of the desired consequences of those creating US policy in Latin America has been, I dare say, to have these refugees of that devastation coming into the US. The wealthy always want an underclass standing by to serve them. Much of the protesting at Honk Kong is a result of the middle class there offended at chinese moves to block their importation of poor filipino servants...
There's also some schadenfreude at the idea that Clinton, who personally directed US involvement in the coup to overthrow Zelaya in Honduras, had her crowning as president undone by the popular reaction in the US against the wave of victims of those policies fleeing north. Perhaps a few more electoral defeats like that will lead these "policymakers" at thinking better of immiserating latin americans. That one was not enough.

There is a camp in Georgia where detainees are reportedly subject to hysterectomies without their consent - that is forced sterilization. Several thousand children have reported sexual abuse. There are reports of chemicals being sprayed every half hour which are causing detainees to cough blood. It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that these are Nazi-ish policies.

And the immigration detention system existed under previous administrations, it is true, but it is the Trump administration that decided on its own initiative to treat crossing the border itself as an imprisonable offense, and to detain men, women, and children indefinitely under purposely horrible conditions.

Those are indeed sordid details, and in no way justifiable.

 

[Patine]

And the immigration detention system existed under previous administrations, it is true, but it is the Trump administration that decided on its own initiative to treat crossing the border itself as an imprisonable offense, and to detain men, women, and children indefinitely under purposely horrible conditions.

So the people who support this or are willing to tolerate it because they support Trump for other reasons, have in my view put themselves beyond the pale of humanity.

You're completely incorrect here about which Administration the border internment camps started under. Actually, incorrect is the wrong word. In denial is the better word. You, like many Americans, must create a narrative, however contrived, that one Duopoly party is rotten to the core, but the other has enough merit and ethics to warrant continued support and be spared the excoriation, condemnation, and rejection they are rightfully due, along with their opposing party. The concept that both Duopoly parties are crooks, murderers, liars, and traitors to the core, neither is worthy of support from any American who cares about their country and it's advancement and has any sort of moral centre at all, and both deserve to have their members in government in life imprisonment or hanging - in partisan prisons and gallows - for their crimes is a thought that brings many Americans who come to terms with it with either political desolation or a need that only radical and precipitous action will be any sort of solution.

 

[onejayhawk]

As was stated recently in this thread, the last election was decided by just 26% of the electorate.

That factoid is essentially irrelevant. Elections are always decided by the center

I think they're way more worried about their kids getting Covid. This is the very demographic I expect to break hard away from Trump.

Aside from COVID fading as a worry, violence is more present.

From my perspective they have crossed the Moral Event Horizon.

OK

And it wasn't the mere fact of Trump being elected. It wasn't the total corruption, the Russia thing, the breaking of "norms", the complete stymying of Congressional oversight, the open racism, the cession of civil rights action by the federal government, the sabotage of Obamacare, the tax cut, or the "gutting" of multiple federal agencies e.g. the EPA. It was the concentration camps.

Does it not bother you that your "facts" vary from gross exaggerations to outright lies, eg the so called concentration camps?

When have you heard a Democrat or Republican say their side is equally bad? Kinda defeats the point of being a Democrat or Republican if there is no sense of moral superiority. Why does a person who thinks both parties are bad need to identify which one is worse? Cant they both be bad regardless. I wont vote for Trump or Biden, it doesn't matter to me which one is worse. They're both killers, maybe that goes with the territory. So which killer is worse? Biden, count the bodies. That doesn't convince me to vote for the other killer. I must have missed these reasons why a Republican would say their side is just as bad as the other, but why is that a knock on them? Seems like an honest assessment. Somebody said covid (Trump) had killed more Americans than the major wars. You mentioned Vietnam and Korea but for some reason ignored WWII and the civil war was the biggest of them all. I already said what war, he voted to invade Iraq. His role in Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc etc is another matter. Was he an internal critic or cheerleader? Was he obliged to speak out or resign? Or did he remain loyal to war criminals?

Realistically, Trump has been the least militant President since WW II. He has used force, but he does not play games with it. Where possible, he has de-escalated and resorted to diplomatic and economic methods. It's no joke that he is annually nominated for the Peace Prize.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's no joke that he is annually nominated for the Peace Prize.

It's not a joke, it's a symptom of the way right wing authoritarian dingbats fawn over each other.

 

[Estebonrober]

There is a camp in Georgia where detainees are reportedly subject to hysterectomies without their consent - that is forced sterilization. Several thousand children have reported sexual abuse. There are reports of chemicals being sprayed every half hour which are causing detainees to cough blood. It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that these are Nazi-ish policies.

And the immigration detention system existed under previous administrations, it is true, but it is the Trump administration that decided on its own initiative to treat crossing the border itself as an imprisonable offense, and to detain men, women, and children indefinitely under purposely horrible conditions.

So the people who support this or are willing to tolerate it because they support Trump for other reasons, have in my view put themselves beyond the pale of humanity.

You're completely incorrect here about which Administration the border internment camps started under. Actually, incorrect is the wrong word. In denial is the better word. You, like many Americans, must create a narrative, however contrived, that one Duopoly party is rotten to the core, but the other has enough merit and ethics to warrant continued support and be spared the excoriation, condemnation, and rejection they are rightfully due, along with their opposing party. The concept that both Duopoly parties are crooks, murderers, liars, and traitors to the core, neither is worthy of support from any American who cares about their country and it's advancement and has any sort of moral centre at all, and both deserve to have their members in government in life imprisonment or hanging - in partisan prisons and gallows - for their crimes is a thought that brings many Americans who come to terms with it with either political desolation or a need that only radical and precipitous action will be any sort of solution.

Did you even bother reading his comment in its entirety before going on your "both sides" crusade?

 

[Berzerker]

Wisconsin Supreme Court blocks ballot access for the Green Party because the VP nominee changed addresses during the signature drive. Democrats are elated...

Wisconsin Democrats argued against ballot access because it would cause a delay in mailing out ballots. In Pennsylvania Democrats delayed mailing out ballots to block the Greens' ballot access. In 2004 Democrats called Oregonians who signed ballot access for Nader to get them to recant. And thats why we call them the Democratic Party.

edit: Penn Democrats challenged the Greens ballot access in court thereby causing a delay in mailing out ballots.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Wisconsin Supreme Court blocks ballot access for the Green Party because the VP nominee changed addresses during the signature drive. Democrats are elated...

Wisconsin Democrats argued against ballot access because it would cause a delay in mailing out ballots. In Pennsylvania Democrats delayed mailing out ballots to block the Greens' ballot access. In 2004 Democrats called Oregonians who signed ballot access for Nader to get them to recant. And thats why we call them the Democratic Party.

Other than your compulsive whining about Democrats, do you have any sort of point here? I mean I assume you are just demonstrating your independence and balancing all the dirt you throw at Tru...

Oh.

Wait.

Yeah to my knowledge you have enthusiastically supported everything Trump has ever done so that balance idea is right out.

 

[Narz]

One should not take Bible study from pundits who live to spread ulterior political motives and message.

The words of the Bible speak for themselves.

 

[Patine]

Did you even bother reading his comment in its entirety before going on your "both sides" crusade?

Yes. It doesn't change the atrocities, corruption, illegal wars, and violations of power also done by Democratic Administrations - of which Biden fully supported (as well as most of such criminal actions by the Reagan and both Bush Administrations). Neither he nor you is going to make a valid case that either Duopoly Party has ANY moral high ground left, and that either deserve the support of anyone with actual humanity, and that the Duopoly is just a criminal, corrupt, murderous, lying, treasonous, soft tyranny racket that deserves only to be removed, completely, from power and face the long-belated criminal they so richly deserve. You, @Lexicus, and others can pepper these forums with anecdotal arguments all you want, the fact is, in the broad, grand scope of things, it's nothing more than, "the other party does horrid and monstrous, so mine has to be forgiven for all of the horrid and monstrous things they, because I'm scared of a political void or a real, meaningful change in a political and government system I've grown up with all my life, and I still believe in the magical thinking that if I keep voting for the "lesser of two evils," I will one day, miraculously, get the advancement, betterment, and needed change and reform from government and NOT at the glacial and insufficient pace, and through crumbs from the table, and only reluctantly, half-heartedly, in part, and under protest, like they always do, if ever."

 

[Patine]

Wisconsin Supreme Court blocks ballot access for the Green Party because the VP nominee changed addresses during the signature drive. Democrats are elated...

Wisconsin Democrats argued against ballot access because it would cause a delay in mailing out ballots. In Pennsylvania Democrats delayed mailing out ballots to block the Greens' ballot access. In 2004 Democrats called Oregonians who signed ballot access for Nader to get them to recant. And thats why we call them the Democratic Party.

edit: Penn Democrats challenged the Greens ballot access in court thereby causing a delay in mailing out ballots.

I wonder if they'd do the same if a Republican or Democratic Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidate did so?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I wonder if they'd do the same if a Republican or Democratic Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidate did so?

The Democrats and Republicans are automatically on the ballot in most states. There's usually a threshold value, like 14%, and if the party drew above that in the previous election they can skip the petition process.

 

[Estebonrober]

Yes. It doesn't change the atrocities, corruption, illegal wars, and violations of power also done by Democratic Administrations - of which Biden fully supported (as well as most of such criminal actions by the Reagan and both Bush Administrations). Neither he nor you is going to make a valid case that either Duopoly Party has ANY moral high ground left, and that either deserve the support of anyone with actual humanity, and that the Duopoly is just a criminal, corrupt, murderous, lying, treasonous, soft tyranny racket that deserves only to be removed, completely, from power and face the long-belated criminal they so richly deserve. You, @Lexicus, and others can pepper these forums with anecdotal arguments all you want, the fact is, in the broad, grand scope of things, it's nothing more than, "the other party does horrid and monstrous, so mine has to be forgiven for all of the horrid and monstrous things they, because I'm scared of a political void or a real, meaningful change in a political and government system I've grown up with all my life, and I still believe in the magical thinking that if I keep voting for the "lesser of two evils," I will one day, miraculously, get the advancement, betterment, and needed change and reform from government and NOT at the glacial and insufficient pace, and through crumbs from the table, and only reluctantly, half-heartedly, in part, and under protest, like they always do, if ever."

Are you not living in a nation whose continued destruction, discrimination, and repression of the First Nations continued under every part in your precious parliament? You seem to think shifting ourselves to a similar form of government would help us (ignoring for the moment the logistical difficulty of this), but it is decidedly not certain that it would improve outcomes on these topics or similar topics to any real degree. Canada has always seemed to line up pretty quick with American atrocities. You would have us believe its above reproach?

 

[Patine]

Are you not living in a nation whose continued destruction, discrimination, and repression of the First Nations continued under every part in your precious parliament? You seem to think shifting ourselves to a similar form of government would help us (ignoring for the moment the logistical difficulty of this), but it is decidedly not certain that it would improve outcomes on these topics or similar topics to any real degree. Canada has always seemed to line up pretty quick with American atrocities. You would have us believe its above reproach?

There is a difference, however small, but meaningful. The Canadian Government - with all of it's main parties - has formally recognized the injustices and travesties done on our soil, and made a public declaration of this recognition, and begun legislation, committees, oversights, changes in policy, and compensation to deal with it. The greatest crimes and atrocities of the U.S. Government - especially the ones with bipartisan support - are still not viewed or admitted as wrong or crimes by the great majority of said government officials, and such crimes are still actively, unapologetically, and unrepentantly pursued, and often publicly glorified.

 

[Berzerker]

Other than your compulsive whining about Democrats, do you have any sort of point here? I mean I assume you are just demonstrating your independence and balancing all the dirt you throw at Tru...

Oh.

Wait.

Yeah to my knowledge you have enthusiastically supported everything Trump has ever done so that balance idea is right out.

The videos have nothing to do with Trump and the point is Democrats suppress the vote when it suits them. I'm the balance to compulsive hypocritical whining Democrats.

 

[Ajidica]

There is a difference, however small, but meaningful. The Canadian Government - with all of it's main parties - has formally recognized the injustices and travesties done on our soil, and made a public declaration of this recognition, and begun legislation, committees, oversights, changes in policy, and compensation to deal with it. The greatest crimes and atrocities of the U.S. Government - especially the ones with bipartisan support - are still not viewed or admitted as wrong or crimes by the great majority of said government officials, and such crimes are still actively, unapologetically, and unrepentantly pursued, and often publicly glorified.

I don't follow politics in the 51st state besides poking fun at Prime Minister Sweater Model, but the impression I've gotten from @Valka D'Ur is that Canada has a serious problem with murdered First Nations women and their deaths not being meaningfully investigated.
Oh, and that Canada's method of addressing its history is, to quote Yes Minister "We will appoint.... someone..... to look into the matter."

Romeo Dallaire is a hero though.

 

[Patine]

I don't follow politics in the 51st state besides poking fun at Prime Minister Sweater Model, but the impression I've gotten from @Estebonrober
Oh, and that Canada's method of addressing its history is, to quote Yes Minister "We will appoint.... someone..... to look into the matter."

Romeo Dallaire is a hero though.]

[USER=56602].

Well, I suppose you got me. An unacceptably lax investigation ethic of murders on a racist slant (which is indeed completely repugnantly and not being dealt with sufficiently enough on the ground level despite bold talks, policy changes, and goodly legislation at the top level that somehow poor connect in the middle) is far, far worse your government deliberately murdering, torturing, kidnapping, interning and detaining with no due process, and ignoring basic rights of immense numbers of it's own citizens and those abroad, and having no, or, at times, a limp-wristed desire to reform the issue, or recognize a wrong has been committed. Oh how unfair my accusations have been, RELATIVELY speaking, since you and @Estebonrober chose to bring up the issue as though it were a moral triumph![/USER]

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The videos have nothing to do with Trump.

Of course they don't. We all know you would never throw dirt on Trump. You are who he was talking about when he said "I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and Berzerker would still support me."

 

[Lexicus]

You're completely incorrect here about which Administration the border internment camps started under. Actually, incorrect is the wrong word. In denial is the better word.

Oh, are you under the impression I think it started under Trump? No. Immigration detention in the US goes back to the late 19th century, but the system of camps inherited by Obama and then Trump was actually started under the Clinton administration. The difference being that in those days the detainees were overwhelmingly guilty (or at least accused) of serious crimes other than merely crossing the border.

But please, let's hear more about how in denial I am.

The videos have nothing to do with Trump and the point is Democrats suppress the vote when it suits them. I'm the balance to compulsive hypocritical whining Democrats.

For those wondering at home, Democrats are happy about that decision because the court was dithering over whether to include the Green Party on the ballot and had ordered the state to stop mailing out ballots completely while it deliberated on the issue in a transparent attempt to suppress the vote.

 

[Patine]

Oh, are you under the impression I think it started under Trump? No. Immigration detention in the US goes back to the late 19th century, but the system of camps inherited by Obama and then Trump was actually started under the Clinton administration. The difference being that in those days the detainees were overwhelmingly guilty (or at least accused) of serious crimes other than merely crossing the border.

But please, let's hear more about how in denial I am.

The main denial I speak of is your belief that the Democratic Party of the United States still deserves any support, is still fit to continue governing, and shouldn't be barred and dissolved as a political entity and their government officials tried for all of their many high crimes ALONGSIDE their opposition, the Republican Party of the United States.