2020 US Election (Part Two)

[innonimatu]

Obama didn't start any new wars either.

He didn't? "We came, we saw, he died" rings a bell?

 

[Farm Boy]

Shhhh, we're pretending that wasn't us and it wasn't the French. Only Republicans still mad at destroying 70 years of US foreign policy and the last gasp of anti-proliferation. Those dastardly racists. Didn't you derp the global polls?

 

[innonimatu]

Shhhh, we're pretending that wasn't us and it wasn't the French. Only Republicans still mad at destroying 70 years of US foreign policy and the last gasp of anti-proliferation. Those dastardly racists. Didn't you derp the global polls?

Some cognitive dissonance is understandable, I mean one has to accept that it was the Nobel Peace Prize winning first black american president who made sure that the most prosperous county in Africa was destroyed and the old tradition of arab slave markers with black africans was resurrected!

Poor Trump, how can he ever beat that for a mark in history! The crown of bitter irony will forever rest with Obama.

 

[Drakle]

Oh look, Trump is pressuring prosecutors to allow corrupt dealings. You know literally the same thing that Trump supporters and co are accusing Joe Biden of.

Except this is actually real, Trump has been paid over a million for doing so, Joe Biden publically rejected doing this when he was VP, and it is US Prosecutors, and Turkey, not Ukraine. And it directly conflicts with Trump's supposed foreign policy, since this was dealing with an entity that he embargoed.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...ption-erdogan-halkbank-conflict-interest.html

In 2016, Turkish strongman Recep Tayyip Erdogan asked then-Vice-President Joe Biden to lean on federal prosecutors who were investigating a Turkish bank for financial crimes and to hand over a dissident cleric living in the United States. The requests seemed to be on Biden’s mind when he publicly addressed reporters and piously explained that, in the United States, the justice system doesn’t work like that. “I suspect it’s hard for people to understand that as powerful as my country is, as powerful as Barack Obama is as president, he has no authority under our Constitution to extradite anyone,” Biden explained to reporters. “Only a federal court can do that. Nobody else can do that. If the president were to take this into his own hands, what would happen would be he would be impeached for violating the separation of powers.”

Well, the justice system works like that now.

The New York Times has a comprehensive report on Erdogan’s successful efforts to recruit top Trump administration officials into his corrupt scheme.

Scandals tend to be complicated, especially scandals involving banks. But this one is extremely simple. The basic elements:

1) The Justice Department was prosecuting financial crimes by a Turkish bank.

2) Turkey’s president asked President Trump to quash the investigation.

3) Trump has personally received more than $1 million in payments from business in Turkey while serving as president.

4) Two attorneys general loyal to Trump, Matthew Whitaker and William Barr, both pressured federal prosecutors to go easy on the Turkish bank.

The Times adds plenty of new detail to the last point, which is yet another blow to anybody who hoped Barr might preserve some shred of respect for the rule of law. “In mid-June 2019, when [Geoffrey] Berman met with Mr. Barr in Washington, the attorney general pushed Mr. Berman to agree to allow the Justice Department to drop charges against the defendants and terminate investigations of other suspected conspirators,” the Times reports. When Barr subsequently fired Berman, who resisted his pressure, Justice Department officials cited his stubbornness on the Turkey case “as a key reason for his removal.”

Biden’s casual assumption in 2016 that granting Erdogan’s wish would automatically result in impeachment is a time-capsule record of the standards of good government that prevailed before Trump blew them to smithereens. In a pre-Trump world, the Turkish bank scandal would destroy a normal presidency.

The misconduct found by the Times is actually much worse than the hypothetical behavior Biden said would lead to impeachment for two reasons. First, it undermines Trump’s own foreign policy. The crimes for which the bank, Halkbank, was being investigated relate to violating American sanctions on Iran. After the Obama administration relaxed sanctions on Iran as part of a nuclear deal, the Trump administration ramped up those sanctions and used them as the lynchpin of its strategy in the region. (This helps explain why national security adviser John Bolton, an Iran Über-hawk, was motivated to blow the whistle on this corruption.)

Constant projection.

Biden really needs to set up a prosecutor unit just to deal with the Trump white house, and its appendages. Just so much criminal activity.

 

[amadeus]

Maybe the U.S. needs to undo the Church Committee and start playing business with some of these jerkoffs.

Get Dulles back in there and start showing the lesser NATO countries who's the boss. (Not the one with Tony Danza.)

 

[Lexicus]

He didn't? "We came, we saw, he died" rings a bell?

Obama hardly can be said to have started that war, nowhere near in the same sense that Bush started the Iraq War.

 

[innonimatu]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...ption-erdogan-halkbank-conflict-interest.html

Constant projection.

Constant lies. Don't you ever get tired of spreading propaganda. With all the wrong things that Trump did and that you could talk about, why do you keep seizing on the fake propaganda, from allusions to the great russiagane to this?
Prove that the alleged $1 million "personally received by Trump" was indeed received. Prove that it had anything to do with this going easy on turkish banks, instead of being part of his business there predating his political office. Else any profit he makes anywhere can be misleadingly constructed as a bribe.

I know Erdogan is now an evil foreign bogeyman, liable of course to rehabilitation as soon as he's useful again for helping some new imperial war. He's indeed a bad guy but no worse that your typical power-hungry head of state of which there are many. For all his warmongering he cannot hove to surpass that of the US under any administration.
The reason why Biden protected Gulen was that Gulen was a US asset and attempted that coup against Erdogan. Handing him over would reveal too much. Trump didn't extradite Gulen either, for the same reason.

"violating American sanctions", the specific accusation against the bank, is a diplomatic pressure took, not some anti-corruption thing. It is by design arbitrarily enforced or ignored by the US government depending on the countries of those targeted institutions, on getting some concessions in exchange.

And of course one must ask: you would rather that "John Bolton, an Iran Über-hawk," had his way? Trump is bad because he didn't kept upping the pressure on Iran, strangling it so much that war became inevitable? Is that what you defend? John Bolton is the good guy and your ally here?

Obama hardly can be said to have started that war, nowhere near in the same sense that Bush started the Iraq War.

The Libyan war started with the "libyan opposition" in London promoting civil strife in Libya. Bribes were offered, weapons were shipped in along with a few fanatics recycled from the Middle East imperial wars. This does not get done without governments approving, financing and supporting the logistics. The purpose of the rebellion thus backed was not to topple the Libyan government but to cause enough fighting for a call of "civil war" to be made. That would provide cover for either a coup (cheap option) or outright war against Libya (the expensive one). Libya being semi-feudal ("tribal") a well-prepared coup ought to have worked. Granted to Obama, he approved the cheap and less damaging option first.
But despite the promises of foreign support just a few ministers took part in the coup - here the feudal character of the country acted against it, the defection of the defense minister didn't carry even the majority of the army. The coup went wrong immediately as Qaddafi didn't cower and leave. It was on brink of defeat, not even a war really, when NATO intervened.
The cheap option of the coup defeated, in step the western allies with their "humanitarian" concert and start bombing Libya. It was still a tough nut to crack, took much longer than predicted: not so much because of enthusiasm for the regime but for lack of enthusiasm for the rebels, most libyans sat out of the fighting and the heavy hauling on the ground had to be done with fanatics and foreigners. Those being few no defeats could be allowed, else the rebels would be wiped out and the whole project end in failure and egg in the face. Heavy air cover was necessary. Foreign troops in the end were involved also, for lack of libyan manpower to carry out the war.

During this war phase Haftar who just happened to be living in Langley was promoted to commander of the rebels. I'm sure it was a coincidence. I'm also sure that Obama didn't decide anything about the NATO intervention, everyone knows NATO does its things without the US governments approval, why the europeans lead NATO!

The idea may not have been Obama's, sure the brit and french hands are were all over it. The Turks meddled from the start, the qataris with them. Etc. But it would have gone nowhere without Obama taking it up and implementing it. It was his call, his war.

 

[Drakle]

Constant lies. Don't you ever get tired of spreading propaganda. With all the wrong things that Trump did and that you could talk about, why do you keep seizing on the fake propaganda, from allusions to the great russiagane to this?
Prove that the alleged $1 million "personally received by Trump" was indeed received. Prove that it had anything to do with this going easy on turkish banks, instead of being part of his business there predating his political office. Else any profit he makes anywhere can be misleadingly constructed as a bribe.

I know Erdogan is now an evil foreign bogeyman, liable of course to rehabilitation as soon as he's useful again for helping some new imperial war. He's indeed a bad guy but no worse that your typical power-hungry head of state of which there are many. For all his warmongering he cannot hove to surpass that of the US under any administration.
The reason why Biden protected Gulen was that Gulen was a US asset and attempted that coup against Erdogan. Handing him over would reveal too much. Trump didn't extradite Gulen either, for the same reason.

"violating American sanctions", the specific accusation against the bank, is a diplomatic pressure took, not some anti-corruption thing. It is by design arbitrarily enforced or ignored by the US government depending on the countries of those targeted institutions, on getting some concessions in exchange.

And of course one must ask: you would rather that "John Bolton, an Iran Über-hawk," had his way? Trump is bad because he didn't kept upping the pressure on Iran, strangling it so much that war became inevitable? Is that what you defend? John Bolton is the good guy and your ally here?

Man, you are just shameless. Read the article.

And the article literally says this

Now, you don’t have to agree with the administration’s agenda of pressuring Iran. I certainly don’t. The point is that the fact that it undermined its own policy agenda highlights the extent of the corruption.

And TRUMP IS THE ONE WHO HIRED BOLTON. I didn't. It is insane how people try and give credit for Trump firing Bolton when he was the one to hire him. And Bolton can be a nasty piece of ****, and also whistleblow about corruption. It isn't like Turkey is trying to keep this particularly quiet, they just keep asking semi-publically.

Meanwhile, Joe Biden and the Democrats want to restore the Iran deal, instead of ramping up tensions.

It is textbook corruption, to lean on the legal system, to solicit payment. The fact that it contradicts trump's stated policy agenda, is just proof of the corruption, not a defence.

 

[Estebonrober]

Constant lies. Don't you ever get tired of spreading propaganda. With all the wrong things that Trump did and that you could talk about, why do you keep seizing on the fake propaganda, from allusions to the great russiagane to this?
Prove that the alleged $1 million "personally received by Trump" was indeed received. Prove that it had anything to do with this going easy on turkish banks, instead of being part of his business there predating his political office. Else any profit he makes anywhere can be misleadingly constructed as a bribe.

I know Erdogan is now an evil foreign bogeyman, liable of course to rehabilitation as soon as he's useful again for helping some new imperial war. He's indeed a bad guy but no worse that your typical power-hungry head of state of which there are many. For all his warmongering he cannot hove to surpass that of the US under any administration.
The reason why Biden protected Gulen was that Gulen was a US asset and attempted that coup against Erdogan. Handing him over would reveal too much. Trump didn't extradite Gulen either, for the same reason.

"violating American sanctions", the specific accusation against the bank, is a diplomatic pressure took, not some anti-corruption thing. It is by design arbitrarily enforced or ignored by the US government depending on the countries of those targeted institutions, on getting some concessions in exchange.

And of course one must ask: you would rather that "John Bolton, an Iran Über-hawk," had his way? Trump is bad because he didn't kept upping the pressure on Iran, strangling it so much that war became inevitable? Is that what you defend? John Bolton is the good guy and your ally here?

It is funny how you always see conspiracies and corruption in the political elites you don’t like but always give benefit of the doubt to the ones you do like. It’s almost as if you are guilty of the very thing you are accusing. Hmm

 

[Estebonrober]

The thing you are missing is that these are not new wars. There are territories already wrecked and taken into the american chaos empire. That is the only reason why I didn't count those: the active wars. Seldom does the empire withdraw. As things stand it's good enough if it ceases expanding further.
As for Iraq the US retains its military presence there and the iraqui government no longer even goes through the motions of ordering that military presence withdrawn. The occupation is de facto accepted. The empire is not yet in withdrawal mode.

you inferred he reduced the violence. He didn’t. He just covered it up. You inferred he cowed Iran. He didn’t. They are up to the exact kind of games they were before. Covid has been a bigger problem for them then Trump. You inferred he has been good for global geopolitics but no matter how horsehockey the American Empire is it is An order of magnitude better then the inevitable fill in such as China or Russia.

I feel you suffer a similar delusion as another of our illustrious posters. Your indignation towards the current political climate (in which you are correct to be indignant) has given you grandiose ideas of solutions while completely ignoring real politic. I sympathize with the plight.

 

[Estebonrober]

Constant lies. Don't you ever get tired of spreading propaganda. With all the wrong things that Trump did and that you could talk about, why do you keep seizing on the fake propaganda, from allusions to the great russiagane to this?
Prove that the alleged $1 million "personally received by Trump" was indeed received. Prove that it had anything to do with this going easy on turkish banks, instead of being part of his business there predating his political office. Else any profit he makes anywhere can be misleadingly constructed as a bribe.

I know Erdogan is now an evil foreign bogeyman, liable of course to rehabilitation as soon as he's useful again for helping some new imperial war. He's indeed a bad guy but no worse that your typical power-hungry head of state of which there are many. For all his warmongering he cannot hove to surpass that of the US under any administration.
The reason why Biden protected Gulen was that Gulen was a US asset and attempted that coup against Erdogan. Handing him over would reveal too much. Trump didn't extradite Gulen either, for the same reason.

"violating American sanctions", the specific accusation against the bank, is a diplomatic pressure took, not some anti-corruption thing. It is by design arbitrarily enforced or ignored by the US government depending on the countries of those targeted institutions, on getting some concessions in exchange.

And of course one must ask: you would rather that "John Bolton, an Iran Über-hawk," had his way? Trump is bad because he didn't kept upping the pressure on Iran, strangling it so much that war became inevitable? Is that what you defend? John Bolton is the good guy and your ally here?



The Libyan war started with the "libyan opposition" in London promoting civil strife in Libya. Bribes were offered, weapons were shipped in along with a few fanatics recycled from the Middle East imperial wars. This does not get done without governments approving, financing and supporting the logistics. The purpose of the rebellion thus backed was not to topple the Libyan government but to cause enough fighting for a call of "civil war" to be made. That would provide cover for either a coup (cheap option) or outright war against Libya (the expensive one). Libya being semi-feudal ("tribal") a well-prepared coup ought to have worked. Granted to Obama, he approved the cheap and less damaging option first.
But despite the promises of foreign support just a few ministers took part in the coup - here the feudal character of the country acted against it, the defection of the defense minister didn't carry even the majority of the army. The coup went wrong immediately as Qaddafi didn't cower and leave. It was on brink of defeat, not even a war really, when NATO intervened.
The cheap option of the coup defeated, in step the western allies with their "humanitarian" concert and start bombing Libya. It was still a tough nut to crack, took much longer than predicted: not so much because of enthusiasm for the regime but for lack of enthusiasm for the rebels, most libyans sat out of the fighting and the heavy hauling on the ground had to be done with fanatics and foreigners. Those being few no defeats could be allowed, else the rebels would be wiped out and the whole project end in failure and egg in the face. Heavy air cover was necessary. Foreign troops in the end were involved also, for lack of libyan manpower to carry out the war.

During this war phase Haftar who just happened to be living in Langley was promoted to commander of the rebels. I'm sure it was a coincidence. I'm also sure that Obama didn't decide anything about the NATO intervention, everyone knows NATO does its things without the US governments approval, why the europeans lead NATO!

The idea may not have been Obama's, sure the brit and french hands are were all over it. The Turks meddled from the start, the qataris with them. Etc. But it would have gone nowhere without Obama taking it up and implementing it. It was his call, his war.

You are going to have to prove any of this for me to accept it. Oh you can’t? That’s too bad.

(fwiw I think this is a reasonably accurate assessment but so is Trump’s corruption and my point is made.) tyahand

 

[innonimatu]

you inferred he reduced the violence. He didn’t. He just covered it up. You inferred he cowed Iran. He didn’t. They are up to the exact kind of games they were before. Covid has been a bigger problem for them then Trump. You inferred he has been good for global geopolitics but no matter how ****** the American Empire is it is An order of magnitude better then the inevitable fill in such as China or Russia.

I feel you suffer a similar delusion as another of our illustrious posters. Your indignation towards the current political climate (in which you are correct to be indignant) has given you grandiose ideas of solutions while completely ignoring real politic. I sympathize with the plight.

I beg to differ. China and Russia and welcome to break the american aspiration to world hegemony, as are any others. You may believe in some manifest destiny of world leadership for the US. Non americans generally do not. For all the other countries in the world it's better to be able to pick and choose alliances, seek protection from the imperialism of one power with another, that to be prey to a single hegemon.
Don't take me wrong, that will often still mean they will seek alliances and protection with the US. It's entirely natural for Vietnam to seek an alliance against China with the US, even though Vietnam was victim of aggression by the US also. For smaller countries the only possible check on the stark choice between naked military aggression or groveling submission is this diplomatic game.

Man, you are just shameless. Read the article.

And the article literally says this

Much as I would like to see the policy agenda of the US as world empire fail, and agenda that Lexicus correctly pointed out Trump maintained even if he refused to geographically expand it by war, I have to recognize that in foreign policy this administration succeeded more often than they failed.

Bolton was hired in an attempt to quieten the warmonger faction presides over in Washington. It worked until he noticed he wasn't getting a new war, with Iran or Syria not that it mattered much which, that he wanted. It's not insane at all to undermine Bolton's policy if you took him onboard just to keep your enemies close by, as the saying goes. I know it's fashionable to believe Trump an idiot but that he is not. Vain, unable to focus, uncultured, but not an idiot in dealing with people. He's more than cunning enough to beat most of the Washington establishment. This ability has been his greatest political asset, what seems to fascinate his followers the most.

You are here engaged in partisan propaganda and as such refuse to see things clearly. Or to discuss things clearly.

 

[innonimatu]

I'm going to bow out of this tread because things are just too partisan in the US, people too caught up in it, to hold rational discussion. And I do know when to bow out.
It's you country, your election and much more meaningful than it can be to me, I don't think I should be doing more than observing until it's past.

 

[Sommerswerd]

538 is showing Ohio as tied.

 

[onejayhawk]

@onejayhawk Out of interest are you still confident in a Trump landside or even a win?

Win, sure. Landslide is possible, but less likely than a couple months ago. The first debate loss hurt Trump badly.

Which is the better analogy of being a Trump supporter. Being left out in the freezing cold after he has left, or the Lake Travis boat sinking where the richer Trump supporters boats sank the poorer ones? Well as someone who has voted Green in the past, I can exclusively reveal that every Green supporter I know is upset with Trump! See my previous posts for why. But more importantly is this thread big enough for 2 Ironsides? I demand an Ironside off!

I'm glad you mention Greens, because the third party vote was big in 2016, but not this year. [/QUOTE]

Trump was very fortunate to inherit Obama's growing economy, just like he inherited his daddy's wealth. He's managed them about them same.

That would be damn well, in case anyone was wondering. Obama had the easy part.

Obama didn't start any new wars either.

Clinton balanced the budget and the economy went into recession shortly thereafter.

You say that like it's a good thing that Clinton left a recession.

I'm going to bow out of this tread because things are just too partisan in the US, people too caught up in it, to hold rational discussion. And I do know when to bow out. It's you country, your election and much more meaningful than it can be to me, I don't think I should be doing more than observing until it's past.

See you next week.

538 is showing Ohio as tied.

Mark that one for Trump.

As we get down to the final days, things have piled up against Biden. The question is whether the early vote can save him.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Mark that one for Trump.

As we get down to the final days, things have piled up against Biden. The question is whether the early vote can save him.

Welcome back. We missed you. Trump has been steadily losing ground in Ohio. I agree that its still a longshot for Biden and would be a complete and total humiliation and abject failure for Trump to lose it, but the fact that Biden is even this close has to be troubling for you and any Republican.

When you say "early vote"... yeah that's just votes. Votes are votes.

 

[Birdjaguar]

... by most of the basic surface-level measures, (GDP growth, Job Market, unemployment, stock market) Trump’s economy had done excellently pre-covid and has been rebounding quicker than the economy did post-2008 under Obama since.

But we are no longer pre covid. Covid is real and we are now in the middle of it. Trump's failure is that he couldn't handle the pandemic. His inability undid everything he had accomplished in his first three years. Trillions in support from congress enabled the V shape, but consumer spending is still $200 billion lower than 4Q 2019. Also disposable income dropped 4.4% in the 3Q.

When you compare changes to GDP in the early quarters after a recession, Trump's numbers are larger because the hole was so deep, but he is still further from getting back zero than all recent recessions.

One reason 30 percent growth doesn’t mean the economy is healed stems from how percentage changes work when going down and then up. If you own a stock priced at $100 and it drops 30 percent, it is now worth $70. If it gains back 30 percent, it is then worth $91 (the gain is just $21 because 30 percent of 70 is 21). In the same manner, the large drop in output in the second quarter followed by similar sized increases in the third quarter will still leave a large hole. Even if GDP growth is 30 percent at an annual rate in the third quarter, output will still be more than 4 percent below its level at the end of 2019, which is more than the farthest the economy ever was from its prior peak in the Great Recession.

In addition, in the United States, we typically report growth numbers at an annualized rate. This way of reporting tells you how much the economy would grow or shrink if it kept up that pace for a full year. When there are huge swings up or down (like now) that can be a bit misleading. It made the drop in the second quarter seem larger than it was, and now makes the rebound seem larger as well.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...-fool-you-the-economy-is-still-in-a-big-hole/

 

[Berzerker]

Bolton was hired in an attempt to quieten the warmonger faction presides over in Washington. It worked until he noticed he wasn't getting a new war, with Iran or Syria not that it mattered much which, that he wanted. It's not insane at all to undermine Bolton's policy if you took him onboard just to keep your enemies close by, as the saying goes. I know it's fashionable to believe Trump an idiot but that he is not. Vain, unable to focus, uncultured, but not an idiot in dealing with people. He's more than cunning enough to beat most of the Washington establishment. This ability has been his greatest political asset, what seems to fascinate his followers the most.

I didn't think of that, I thought Bolton was nothing more than a junkyard dog

I'm going to bow out of this tread because things are just too partisan in the US, people too caught up in it, to hold rational discussion. And I do know when to bow out. It's you country, your election and much more meaningful than it can be to me, I don't think I should be doing more than observing until it's past.

thats too bad, you're a steady source of valuable insights

 

[uppi]

Is it fair to compare one-time costs with an annualized cost? $40k * 5 years = $200k. If those people are employed for more than 5 years under that model, it pays off.

Neither here nor there for me though because I wouldn’t be looking at cutting individual rates anyway.

I didn't check the numbers, but usually a tax cut is not a one time cost, but is applied annually as well.

 

[Kyriakos]

I know Erdogan is now an evil foreign bogeyman, liable of course to rehabilitation as soon as he's useful again for helping some new imperial war. He's indeed a bad guy but no worse that your typical power-hungry head of state of which there are many. For all his warmongering he cannot hove to surpass that of the US under any administration.
The reason why Biden protected Gulen was that Gulen was a US asset and attempted that coup against Erdogan. Handing him over would reveal too much. Trump didn't extradite Gulen either, for the same reason.

"violating American sanctions", the specific accusation against the bank, is a diplomatic pressure took, not some anti-corruption thing. It is by design arbitrarily enforced or ignored by the US government depending on the countries of those targeted institutions, on getting some concessions in exchange.

And of course one must ask: you would rather that "John Bolton, an Iran Über-hawk," had his way? Trump is bad because he didn't kept upping the pressure on Iran, strangling it so much that war became inevitable? Is that what you defend? John Bolton is the good guy and your ally here?

You can't seriously be comparing US, even under Trump, to Turkey. Are you aware of how little it takes to be jailed there for decades? You see many US journalists being thrown to prison for speaking against Trump?
I think on this issue you just want to protect the rest of your claims, but this is no way to go about it. Not that I am not guilty of selective reading too on matters, but it is out of touch with reality to think the bank scandal is just made up and this is just Trump being innocent and not making money as potus by being nice to what is pretty much a dictatorship in a country with no values you like.
I mean, imagine if the Eu was acting like Turkey; we would now be in prison or dead for endlessly posting against Merkel or similar.